0854 Back to Original Coupe

Like I said, I didn't really follow that whole saga closely. I also don't see how any of that directly affects, or negates any criticisms or questions regarding 0854 and Bonhams description thereof.

0854 is the star lot of the Monterey sale week, so it seems reasonable that posters in this section (and thread) would be interested in discussing the car, its condition, the choice of venue, its potential value and everything that pertains to the sale of the car.

Beyond that, Bonhams - I think - is one of the "good guys", and - again, I think - are therefore expected to be held to a higher standard than, say, Mecum. Additionally, rather than the usual ambiguity that we expect and even accept with catalogue descriptions, albeit with a bit of an eye roll, the statements in question are made in a rather matter of fact way, which reasonably opens them up to questions and criticism.

Great, so now we've established that you don't really want to discuss the car - the topic of the thread - and instead only want to take issue with some of the posters and not the content of their posts as it relates to the topic of the thread. Glad we've cleared that up.

 

I'm also pleased someone finally figured it out.
And should anyone be curious enough about my "motives" (and views) for the above, please see the referenced "debate". It's all there.

P.S. The "debate" example is also outside of my purview, so I didn't really concern myself with it too much, but I did express curiosities about some of the presented evidence, but apparently wasn't worthy of replies.
And I also did express my disappointment in what all that nonsense accomplished.

 

I would leave it three liter and drive it until it wrecked again..

Goodnight

On Goodyears
Goodyear is #1 in Racing

 

Walter Medlin wrote off his Playboy subsription as a business expense.
Thats why the IRS got this machine.

 

We are not talking about the 3 litre fake P4 in this thread.

Posts indicating the level of knowledge and research of most of the JG supporters. Zero. Walter Medlin never owned 412 P 0854, the subject of this thread. He owned 0844 and 0858.

 

So you blather on and on in great detail about a debate you claim you have no interest in, then fit your blinkers on, and start humming loudly so you do not have to then reply to detailed, valid alternative viewpoints.

Weird way to live life!

 

This example is what it is, and the great thing about open auctions is at this level buyers have done their due diligence, so the market will ultimately decide what it is and what it is prepared to pay for such.

Pet projects suck up cash like it is going out of fashion even if you have vault like Scrooge McDuck, so I imagine the proceeds will help the "lad with his finger in the dyke" hold back to floods for a while longer.

What's next do we think? GT40? as the sale of the ex Piper replica P4 version would not help much.

 

Who knows? Maybe the next owner will give .02 Lira about what anybody thinks here. Including my opinion.

Big boys usually have “big boy pants on” and aren’t concerned with “‘little boy diapers and data nerds, and detail poseurs”.

Seems likely, that someone will snap it up irrespective of what it isn’t. If I had the means, I would.

 

On the other hand, some “big boys” take their ball and go home when the heat is on. Some have big pants, some have fragile egos. It is what it is…and Steve is not wrong. Personalities aside, Steve has become one of the more knowledgeable people re: this era of P cars…simply because there were too many dubious claims being made and he made the effort to understand.

 

Well said, but irrespective of the “pants and balls attached”…they will bid regardless of tires and vents and other irregularities.

They will or won’t correct them later…and if they don’t….02 Lira here.

They might thank the F-chat “community” for their insight, or not give .02 Lira about it….in that regard it really doesn’t matter.

 

Yup, there will be ego involved…fragile and/or otherwise.

 

Since some here seem to be concerned or curious of my views about sales presentation of the topic vehicle, I can share couple of thoughts here.

First, as I mentioned I have no interest in acquisition of it nor wish to appear defending auction company’s listing description (which I admittedly haven’t read), some here seem to be hung up on something referred in it as “exacting”.
Exacting to what ? To a form and specifications the car was initially created by the factory ? To a form/specifications it was at some point in time during its active racing career (this seems to be a fairly common approach in restorations of vintage racing cars) ? To a form/specifications decided/dictated by the owner ? Or perhaps some combination of all ?

As for the claimed 9 year length of the restoration, I believe anyone criticizing or questioning such has probably never been personally involved with many, let alone the industry of it in general.
Those of us who have been, either know and/or have heard of countless instances in which for countless reasons some projects have taken years or even decades to accomplish.
Maybe the owner hadn’t initially budgeted adequate funding ?
Maybe the owner decided to put it on hold in favor of other, more interesting or pressing projects ?
Maybe some other life altering events intervened and/or took precedent ?
Maybe the restorer/shop had inabilities accomplish/deliver to expectations ? Etc, etc, etc…

I’m sure if you ask several long term (professional) restorers/shops, many will likely confirm these types of occasions, any of which could result to extensive time delays/interruptions in some projects, being fairly common.
I would be surprised if our esteemed Mr. Massini wasn't aware/familiar with numerous Ferrari restoration projects that have taken a decade or longer to finish for any of my aforementioned or other reasons.
I myself have experienced few that took much longer than initially expected, including more than one in which the client, the previous restorer(s), subcontractors, etc have ran into unexpected financial and/or health (even death) related issues, some even lead to change of ownership during the process (one of my +/-5 years long complete restoration commissions changed ownership twice before it was finished), possibly leading to change of expectations and/or even switching to another shop.
Having taken over and finished several restorations botched or unfinished by others, including some with (extended/years long) stints in 2 or 3 other shops prior to landing on my lap, I’m sure I’m far from only one with these types of experiences.

And as I’ve probably pointed out before, a complete restoration of most, relatively complex 50+ y.o. automobiles can easily take several thousand hours of labor (+ parts & supplies) to accomplish, which without a full time crew/staff dedicated to full time efforts can lead to years, even without any of the aforementioned, unexpected delays/distractions/interventions extending the timeline further.

Besides, in my experience and observations, most of those commenting/criticizing complex/comprehensive/“full” restorations in online discussions/forums don't seem to have much, if any, actual firsthand involvement/experience with such, let alone multiple of them.

Oh, since someone appeared curious of my experiences or views on authenticities regarding Daytonas by seemingly comparing them to those of someone expressing expertise on topic subject vehicle, I can't but wonder how exactly this “expressed expertise” is/was achieved ?
Does the research messiah of all things P cars or anyone else recently contributing to this thread have firsthand experience with extensive restoration work they’ve personally performed on one or more P cars and/or perhaps extensively photo documented any and all believed to be original details & features they personally discovered during the process and are using all that for the basis of their research ?
While I don’t wish to share any of my research publicly, let alone electronically, I’d be happy to show any of my tens of thousands of photos I’ve personally taken of dozens of Daytonas I’ve worked on, had access to conduct in-person studies and photo documentation of, along with numerous I’ve encountered at various events over the years and decades (I don't much rely on photos or other documentation by others, especially anyone who can't prove/verify the origin of the photo AND the subject it's depicting). My files and research includes several, relatively low mileage, original condition/unrestored examples and to see them or other similar files on numerous non-Ferrari preservations/restorations/etc I’ve accumulated in past 35+ years all one has to do is schedule an appointment and travel to my shop.
Heck, I'll treat them to a nice lunch or dinner and even pay for their overnight accommodations if needed.

 

As I mentioned a lot of posts ago, I have not read this 'telenovela' at its full length, and frankly don't care to,

but does this car come with the oh so precious, "Classiche Certification" ?

Why is being sold? Frankly, still remains "che stronzo".

Regards, Alberto

 

PS. Just realized this is not the usual:
The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread,
so regrets on my confusing 2 cars, or am I?

my comment is #10997 on that thread, in case you are curious, and no, I did not read that 'telenovela' either.

Regards, Alberto

 

Another clueless lazy poster. If you'd read the threads in the slightest over the years you'd know the answer to this question. Mr Glickenhaus thinks he knows better than Ferrari about their Prototype racing cars. The result of his restorations and ridiculous claims made over the years prove the true level of his expertise, which is zero.

That you admit to not reading both the threads does not make it right for you have made uninformed comments in them.

 

I would only want to add that I agree and add my 2 cents worth on a slight tangent. Cars this complex require a lot of investigative work to clarify exactly where and when they ran and then consistent data to restore them too, each one being hand built to the nth degree. One might think that with just eight cars, their history would be settled but still we have seen the flexibility with works sports racing car history in this period (#0816 anyone). Even when Jim G knew the exact race history, he still would have needed to pick a race to restore it to and then found as many photos as possible and briefed everyone on how and why. This can take years and can and should be part of its restoration period. And this doesn't include the potential need to recreate impossibly rare but lost parts and so on. Nine years seems ridiculous but everything can easily add up even when cost is no object, I know the restoration of the sole surviving Bucciali TAV30 took closer to 20!

 

It is well known that Mr Glickenhaus has attempted (but failed) to restore 0854 to as it was at its last outing by Maranello Concessionaires at the 1967 BOAC Brands Hatch 500 race. Perhaps you should read the scripts of the auctions you list.

From Bonham's auction description:

A fanatical purist and one with a perfectionist's eye for the details, the current owner elected to restore 0854 to its final racing guise within Maranello Concessionaires' ownership, as in the Brands Hatch 6-Hours race in July 1967. Through the extensive contacts and resources available to him, he presided over an exacting restoration, most importantly returning the majority of its original bodywork, including its numbered expansive tail section, doors and nose to the car. In doing so, the car is exactly as finally campaigned for Ronnie Hoare, for the most part wearing original bodywork upon its matching chassis, engine and gearbox. In this respect it is believed to be unique among surviving 'P' cars.

 

These auction descriptions are typically written by the seller, then cut and pasted by the auction house, and as a result the company list a disclaimer in the catalogue to cover their backsides is my understanding.

That one really does gush though to an uncomfortable degree about the seller rather than the car!.

At the end of the day buy the car not the seller is the thing to keep in mind.

There are enough wealthy people out there that would love to have a p car in their collection, and only a handful to go around....plus the odd bitsa or two so it will find a happy new owner who may well want to get it to the claimed condition regardless.

 

NO. Not the seller.
Most auction companies temporarily employ several freelance writers who then create a text (auction catalog description), often a bit overenthusiastic and, of course, with the idea to promote the object in the best possible way.
I have been working with all major auction companies (not as a writer) for 40+ years and know exactly how it's done.

Marcel Massini

 

I clearly frequent far more low rent auctions then!

 

Mr. Robertson, the "Classiche" bit, is tongue in cheek, if that was not clear, then, look it up.
Baron Münchhausen, is what he thinks he is, and I know him well enough. Che stronzo. (look it up too)

Why am I lazy? Because I have better things to do ( like work) than read thousands of inane posts, whereas you must be bored to death,
and must show us your prowess on something that was clear from the onset. Just repeat after me, BOGUS cars, and write it once,
and put it to rest. You, are part of the 'telenovela', and if that escapes you too, google it.

But then, the Beeb, is your guideline, so no 'telenovelas' there.

I am informed enough to state that both threads are an utter waste of time on cars that are a figment of something imaginative, if they were
real they would have the "Classiche Certif.".

I mean, if people are so sad that they get a Dino 'certified' to sell on BaT, then so much more the
reason to have these 2 go through the process. I wonder if you understand this too.

You, on the other hand, can probably repeat every post in your sleep, possibly losing it. Methinks the UK fog has you fogged over.

Is it not clear enough, that I AM on your side?
Kudos!

Regards, Alberto

 

Okay, Alberto. This car, 0854, is real, unlike the other one, which is not. Although after the huge fire it suffered from in 1969, if it was repairable to Ferrari's standard rather than them scrapping it like they did with 0846 after that car burned at Le Mans, 1967, it was not repaired by Ferrari, but in David Piper's shed. 0854 would have needed very many parts replaced. For me, the questions still remain about whether the chassis was actually repairable, or too brittle, warped and twisted and also the authenticity of the parts used to replace the many damaged parts all around the car. As Piper said, there was little left apart from the engine, gearbox and chassis, and those would not have escaped fire damage.

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It also had the rear part of the chassis cut off it before the fire to make it a barchetta by Piper. The interior, dashboard, clocks, fuel bladders/tanks and electrics would have needed completely replacing. JG has stated that its had its original nose, tail and doors reunited with it. BUT, they are over a new centre section and roof made in the US hiding all the non authentic Piper remedial work post fire. All this along with the wrong radiators, seats and aluminium work around the tubing, this car needs a lot of work by Ferrari to restore it to full authenticity. This car is the polar opposite of the most original P car of this series as is being stated. Oh I forgot about the 5 correct tyres that it needs. S rated to 112 mph tyres on a historic Ferrari P car that they are hoping to get $40 M + for. Unbelievable!

 

Thank you Steve!

Appreciate the 'bottom line' immensely, and that, takes care of that.
Heat from a fire, does funny structural damage to the molecular structure of a chassis.

Thus my (innocent) question on a "Classiche Certification". I think it imperative, as a birth certificate
to gain access to a passport. I have a friend in Italy, with a funny machine, that can tell you
percentages of a specific metal, and which minerals compose it.
We tried on an Alfa GTA (peraluman) to a TEE. 100% accuracy.

Amazing gadget, I do not think they would allow him next to 0856

Best regards,
Alberto

PS the tyres are downright silly, maybe some Avons, or maybe too thick (cheap, on a 40 mill auto) ?

 

Metallurgic testing can only tell you so much. Back in the 1980s divers in the Baltic raised a ship or submarine that had the same metal used in building the 1929-31 Mercedes SSKs, then worth more than any Ferrari. Some of that metal from the ship was indeed used in the building of several brand new SSK chassis. Same thing has happened with several pre war cars, but only those with the value to make the enormous cost worthwhile! Continuous history is of equal if not more important than whether its components are as original

 

At least the dna from the original has direct lineage to the current version, how much of that remains in the actual car is debatable, but not conflicted.

It is amazing once the crud from a fire is hacked off how many usable components can be found within the core of an engine, gearbox etc. I have resurrected a few over the years, none of this kind of value though.

Again a car is simply an assembly of many many components, most of which are interchangeable, Piper was probably the only one with the required stockpile of original components to bring this car back from the dead at the time.

Given that he did, then if he thought an ounce of such was also within the replica's he also built he would have also assigned it an original Ferrari chassis number!

For anyone to claim he never had a clue is comical.

It should also be recognised and taken into account on these debates that many of the contributors do not have English as their first language, and as someone who is not multilingual I greatly admire their ability to engage in a detailed written conversation in something that is not their mother tongue.

Things can and do get lost in translation sometimes, we should all bare that in mind.