0854 Back to Original Coupe

Important to remember this, legally internationally “the car” is the chassis, period.

Everything else, yes everything else,….engine, gearbox and yes the body too are just parts thereof, not the car.

 

Also important to remember is that while this ^^ maybe true on Ferraris and many other vehicles, there were (& still exist) countless automobiles manufactured without any VINs designated to their chassis, but instead to their engines, i.e. making said engine "the car".

 

example please

 

I became aware that in some, maybe all US states?, the car is registered by its engine #. Some years back a US raced Jaguar D-Type was sold back to the UK after a V8 had been fitted, fast forward two decades and a Florida (why is it always Florida?) collector managed to buy the engine. He built a brand new D-Type around the engine, eventually suing the owner of the original chassis. At least internationally the chassis remains the basis for any car and most courts have come to the conclusion that where one car has the original chassis is king.

 

I believe many, perhaps majority of cars built prior to WWII had their engine number designated as their VIN by their respective manufacturers (nothing necessarily to do with Federal or State governments, per se) and their chassis/frames originally had none.
Some also had body serial number, but it wasn’t necessarily same as the engine/VIN.

Few examples:
My 1932 Plymouth doesn’t have any stamped numbers on its chassis/frame. Its VIN is stamped on the engine block and a tag mounted on the body door jamb. That's the number it's registered and insured with, making the body AND the engine "the car".

A while back I worked on a 1930 Cord L-29 which had only stamped VIN on its engine block, but I don’t recall it having any chassis/frame stampings, but it might've had one on the body.

A 1937 Cord 812SC I'm currently working on has a manufacturing tag on the side of its firewall with serial number, i.e. VIN along with engine number stamped on it, but being a uni-body car the chassis/frame doesn't have any numbers stamped on it, so the body is "the car".
The engine number on that tag matches that stamped on the engine, but is not same as the VIN.

Most of the 1950s/1960s American production cars with a separate frame I’ve worked on over the decades have their VIN placed on a riveted or spot welded tag somewhere on the body, often door jamb, and while many have some type of sequence/serial numbers stamped on their engines and frames (matching to each other), those numbers usually are not same as the VIN (used for registration/insurance/etc), hence making their bodies "the car".
And I believe same practice continued with the introduction of uni-body cars (introduced in many Chrysler Corp. cars, for example, in 1960).

I'm not sure if international/universal conformity for all this didn't get started until 1970s or 1980s, perhaps with introduction of 17+(?) digit VINs on all cars.

I believe it was U.S. government regulation that mandated the introduction of the door jamb tag and stamped steering column with VIN (i.e. chassis number) on Daytonas (and others of that era Ferraris) to make them legal for registration in the U.S. as apparently the chassis stamping along with the engine bay tag weren't enough.

 

Most if not all US cars have a chassis tag/ID number and a separate engine number. That goes back to at least the 50’s. My ‘67 Mustang has chassis and engine ID numbers, not the same number. My TR6 has a chassis ID, a body number and an engine and transmission number.

Perry

 

So Piper was chosen to rebuild 0854 by Ferrari, because he had the knowledge, some of the parts, and the drive. He rebuilt the car from wrecked and charred remains, (we’ve all seen the photos). And then he travels to Modena to get all remaining spares and parts needed and that are left to rebuild this car and other “P” race cars.

In the great Scottish tradition, it’s not unlikely that he grabbed anything relevant to what he was building included anything in the scrap heap, including other wrecked and burned chassis and or relevant parts. All that went back with David to his humble “P”shop. Of course it did… It’s more than possible/likely that extra parts were built into other cars in the Scotch equation of Pipers humble “P” car factory.

Some of you may and may not be aware of how much unauthorized “stuff”, items, parts, documents, racing equipment, bodywork, etc, etc, has been “removed”/“scrapped” from the Ferrari factory since day one!

Ask Marcel, he would know, he has hundreds of Ferrari “scrapped” documents.

All the best with the sale of this car, it is art in my eyes.

 

Reminds me of this:

Marcel Massini

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in the years before 1965 the engine number has been also in the car papers in germany, sometimes the same number as the VIN, but the car never has been identified by the engine number

 

Rubbish! Piper was not chosen by Ferrari to rebuild 0854 at all. It was Piper's car. Lots of misinformation here.

 

Rubbish? Duly noted, apologies for my verbiage.

 

Back in 1970 a new record was set by a 1930s Mercedes Benz at $100k and a Duesenberg then beat it BUT P series Ferrari of this type were just used cars that were too old to be raced on the front line, too new to be collectible or classic raced (other than the earliest Colombo types). I don't always agree with Pipers methods but he saved a lot of what would otherwise have been scrapped.

As for chassis numbers and there use, certainly the better pre war cars (Alfa Romeo, Bentley, Bugatti and Mercedes-Benz) had separate stampings on all their components. And these were often unmatching, Simon Moore in his 8C2300 book gives the overall car chassis number, a frame number, engine #, and so on and so forth, down to some fairly minor components. Even the better body shops like Touring and Zagato numbered each major panel, Mercedes added a commission number that was allocated at ordering. Europe wide though, the chassis number remained the number that the car was registered against!

 

Did I miss anything? i had to go buy more popcorn

(my wife bought me a great T-shirt that says, ”Sarcasm…it’s how I hug”)

 

I am aware of the above practices, but my earlier post was to reply on requests for examples/explanations to clarify my prior comment about chassis/frame not necessarily being “the car”.

Even every(?) Daytona has a “body assembly” sequence number stamped/scribed/painted (at Scagliettis) on most of their body panels and trim pieces but those are not indicated in their VIN or registration/insurance documents, but perhaps I incorrectly assumed everyone here knows basics like that.

OTOH, I also thought, apparently incorrectly, that my comment about chassis stamping alone may not make a car “it”, especially on all those that don’t have one is common knowledge to those who have been around or interested in all types of vintage cars for long time.

 

Basics indeed.
The tragedy is that such numbers don't play a role for certificaton and aren't even mentioned in the red book. But that's another story, I know.

Marcel Massini

 

The most english sounding scotsman I have ever heard! I think the poster must be related to the brothers Grimm with that fairy story

 

Bonhams Official Catalogue for 412 P #0854. $40,000,000 - 45,000,000

 

Almost 40 pages...
I guess the 'railbirds' will be out in force.

I can only guess at the: hey, Mr. Glicken...., why the cheap tyres? No spare change?
Maybe Roger can change them at the 'Races', oh wait, no Laguna?
Why sell it? He's not hard up for the 40 mill.? Maybe he is, real life changer.

'Che stronzo'

Regards, Alberto

 

Nice drawing on the cover.

 

you are lucky not get blocked by the mods

 

Why? Both strontium and strontianite are named after Strontian, a village in Scotland.
Regards, Alberto

 

but you have written "che stronzo", in german it means "Was für ein Arschloch", in english ( google translator ) "what an a s s h o l e"

 

Yes Romano, but you are wrong, it is a typical Italian 'argot word' for pompous ass.
Italian was my first language, so I know. It also means another thing, which I cannot say here.

The reason I posted it, is because of this, so I am quoting what the people at Villa D'Este said about him:

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/the-one-and-only-0846-debate-thread.423520/page-440#post-149102277

Your German Google does work, but not with the same sense of humour of an Italian.
Regards, Alberto

 

:^)

 

Reported to have been sold at $30,225,000 including premium.