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"100 Greatest Drivers of All Time"......

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by kizdan, Jun 18, 2004.

  1. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
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    Dan
    The story is in "F1 Racing" magazine, June 2004 issue. Picks are by a jury 77 people that includes journalists, team principals, engineers, and 16 F1 drivers including 5 World Champions.

    Here is the top 25; (drum roll, please.......)
    1) Ayrton Senna
    2) Juan Manuel Fangio
    3) Michael Schumacher
    4) Jim Clark
    5) Alain Prost
    6) Jackie Stewart
    7) Niki Lauda
    8) Stirling Moss
    9) Nelson Piquet
    10) Alberto Ascari
    11) Mika Hakkinen
    12) Jack Brabham
    13) Gilles Villeneuve
    14) Nigel Mansell
    15) Emerson Fittipaldi
    16) Jochen Rindt
    17) Mario Andretti
    18) Graham Hill
    19) Ronnie Peterson
    20) John Surtees
    21) James Hunt
    22) Alan Jones
    23) Keke Rosberg
    24) Jody Scheckter
    25) Dan Gurney

    Opinions, comments????
     
  2. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    - MS should be #1 (and again I'm not a MS fan).
    - Hakkinen on 11, ahead of Gilles and Mansell, you gotta be kidding me.
    - Alan Jones deserves to be a lot higher up. Keke Rosberg should not even be on this list or you might as well add Tambay or Pironi.
    - Where is Eddie Irvine?!
     
  3. RocketBoy

    RocketBoy Formula 3

    Feb 13, 2004
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    Professor Hajji
    Andreas,

    What's worse is that they left out jungle boy, Antonio Pizzona. Come on, anyone who shows off to reporters by flipping the road car they're in to impress them has to get some points. And besides, he was just psyching out all the other drivers when he was being lapped for the third time...
    And where's our KL buddy Alex Yoong. He is very inspirational when it comes to driver's having an impact. Before he payed his way into F1, I thought the KL only had the Petronas Towers and that's it. Now I know they have Alex Yoong! I, and all the other F1 fans, may never be the same.

    RocketBoy

    PS: Irvine is my favorite, but if he made the list he would list himself #2. But that's Eddie.
     
  4. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 17, 2001
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    Andrew Menasce
    Great ! Senna is numero um !
     
  5. tuttebenne

    tuttebenne F1 Rookie

    Mar 26, 2003
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    Andy
    This type of thing is always fun and never conclusive. I'm not sure if the comment on Eddie Irvine is serious or not. If people like Arnoux, Patrese and Jacques Villeneuve aren't in the top 25, then it would be justified not having Eddie on the list in front of them.

    Let's hear from some others.

    Andy
     
  6. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    LOL. Yup, he would have said just that.

    tuttebene, I'm an ardent Eddie Irvine fan, so my judgement in that regard is heavily clouded. You would be his fan too if you had the luck to spend some hours drinking with his dad as I was lucky to.
    :)

    But seriously, Eddie was at least as good as Rosberg or Scheckter, if not better. And if it weren't for Todt, he would have the 99 title and be in this list, which seems to be heavily biased towards title winners (why else would you even consider Rosberg?).

    Jacques Villeneuve would deserve to be in this. Patrese not. Arnoux is debatable (he could be fast as hell, but was very inconsistent).
     
  7. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
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    That list is a joke.

    Where's Tazio Nuvolari ???? And Mike Hakkinnen only one spot behind the great Alberto Ascari.

    I realize Nuvolari didn't compete in modern day F1, but he raced in the pre WWII equivelent of F1 and should be on the list.

    Regards,

    Jon P. Kofod
    www.flatoutracing.net
     
  8. tuttebenne

    tuttebenne F1 Rookie

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    I can understand the predisposition toward Eddie as a result of your meeting his dad. However the use of "inconsistent" to describe Arnoux is a bit laughable considering Eddie's record.
     
  9. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Don't get me wrong. I'm a big Arnoux fan too. Even met him once. But he managed (together with Renault) to turn a WC winning car into a boomdoggle. However his fight with Villeneuve in Dijon by itself would earn him a spot on this list.
    :)
     
  10. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
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    That is exactly where Senna should be.

    The name that jumped out at me is Mika Hakkinen. I don't believe he should be in the top 25.
     
  11. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

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    Dan,

    I think he deserves to be in the top 25 somewhere but surely not one spot removed from the top ten.

    I think Rosberg should be further back. He was a gifted driver and at times very fast, but the guy made so many boneheaded mistakes (he must have run the fuel tank empty at least two dozen times). He also won his only World Championship by default (only won one race the entire season).

    Cheers,

    Jon
     
  12. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

    I'm not alone anymore in my assessment of that guy. 82 belonged to Villeneuve; even Pironi would have been worthy. But not Rosberg.
     
  13. Turb0flat4

    Turb0flat4 Formula 3

    Mar 7, 2004
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    RND
    I was just going to comment on the absence of Tazio when I saw your post. :D
     
  14. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Below a couple of pictures:

    - Eddie's father (along with fellow FChatter Anthony and his girls) in Imola last year.

    - Your buddy Alex with some Indy State Troopers. Make your own subtitle.
     
  15. pozzi

    pozzi Formula Junior
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    Fabio Pozzi
    Brazil Rules !!!!! # 1

    not to mention #9 and #15......
     
  16. moretti

    moretti Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 1, 2003
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    gee, I wonder how many of these guys won the championship in a car they designed and built.........hmmm only black Jack!

    Tazio was the greatest by a long stretch, he would have murdered Senna on the track unless Senna ran into him, no respect for people who deliberately crash into others, and that includes Senna, Prost , MS and the major idiot Montoya with his protege Sato.

    Hakkinen was a damn good driver who never resorted to slamming into the side of someone to win a race and all the drivers from the early days were excellent as they knew that if they screwed up they would in all probability be killed.
     
  17. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ

    Nov 11, 2003
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    Anthony Tonokaboni
    Damn John take it easy! The article in F1 Racing had been done 7 years prior, and regardless what Imperial 183 thinks, it was not a popularity contest. They took 77 Individuals in the sport and had them rate the top 25 drivers. This included Team Owners, 16 Ex F1 Drivers (5 champions among them), Engineers, and Journalist.

    The above took into account not only statistics (hence S. Moss #8) but competition, teammates, and all around driveability.

    I think in 7 years from now it might be tough for Senna to keep #1 from Schumacher although I hope he does.

    Jon, I don't think Tazio was included as they started from the Modern Day championship of 1950.

    I think Hakkinen was underrated when he raced, however I would not have put him ahead of G. Villeneuve or N. Mansell. I am surprised Eddie Irvine was even included, I definately would have put R. Schumacher ahead of Irvine.

    Great Magazine, lets see what happens 7 years from now.
     
  18. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
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    May 14, 2004
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    This was nothing more than a popularity contest. The jury of 77 panel members that selected these drivers did so based not upon pure driving preformance but what most people want to hear. Most people in f1 do not want to hear that Michael Schumacher is the best. Most people want to hear that the late great Senna is number 1. Fangio the great driver from the early years is up there with Senna.

    That list was nothing but a popularity contest... Naming Senna as number 1 will sell more magazines. Everyone has sympathy for a good human being that died in a fatal accident. Don't get me wrong, Senna was a great driver.

    But like it or not... Michael Schumacher is number 1... he is a six time world champion and when the seventh world championship roles around his critics will be silenced once again.

    The absennse of Mika H. from the top of the list proves the fact that this is nothing but a marketing gimick tosell magazines. Afterall... Finland and Germany are a much smaller market than all those Brazilians who have gone out to buy the F1 magazine and praise all those judges for recognizing Senna as number 1. So good for the judges and good for F1 magazine. Right now everything with the name "Senna" Sells. If I got to Indy next week and print out posters Senna is number 1 they will sell more than Schumacher is number 1.

    Michaels records will stand for a longer time... and in a couple of generations when the sympathy for Senna's death dies out and it is no longer a popularity contest... F1 magazine itself will come out with a different drivers standing... it will be funny to see some of the same judges name Micahel Schumacher as number 1 then to sell F1 magazines. At least they will get it right that time that Michael Schumacher is number 1.
     
  19. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ

    Nov 11, 2003
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    Not to start a flame with you, thats your opinion, I don't think those 77 people are all about Popularity contest. Hakkinen is lucky he is in the top 20. I thought you watched F1 from 85? Didn't you think that there were better drivers and more competitive drivers than? Sometimes Statistics don't tell the whole story as in although Senna won only 41 races out of 164, he is second on the all time laps led and races led behind Schumacher at 86 races vs. Schumachers 116 races. But the cars back than did not hold up like the last 5 years. How many breakdowns has Michael had.

    Too Rank Fangio as #2 is no brainer perhaps he should be #1, he raced Moss in equal cars and beat him. He won 24 out of 52 Races and his Pole and Fastest laps speak for themself.

    Schumacher is #1 to you as Senna is #1 to me, and Fangio was #1 to Senna.
    So we can agree to disagree.
     
  20. bmiller411

    bmiller411 Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
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    Bruce B Miller
    I think we are missing Phil Hill
     
  21. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
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    So we can agree to disagree that this stupid ranking was nothing more than a popularity contest.... good I am happy we can agree on that!

    Sympathy for Senna Sells. This equals huge volume sales for all those Senna Fans that will go out to buy that f1 magazine to keep his memories alive. Too bad the real number 1 is Michael Schumacher.

    Michael Schumacher knows he is number 1, his true fans know he is number 1 and they don't need a popularity contest to prove their statemets. They all can simply turn to Six World Championships and say "not number 1 according to Senna fans and F1 magazine... ok big deal... lets go win us the seventh world champioship!"
     
  22. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
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    The debate continues....................Ruth vs. Arron, Gretzky vs. Howe, LeMond vs. Induain (sp?), Wilt vs. Russell, Bird vs. Magic vs. Jordan, Montana vs. Elway, Mario vs. AJ, Petty vs. Earnhardt...


    yada, yada, yada................

    Why can't some of you just call it a tie. You all know that I am first and foremost a Ferrari fan first, a Senna fan second, and a Schumi fan 3rd.

    If you look at stats, then forget Senna, Clark, and Fangio............
    ......but if stats were all that mattered where would GV be? Not even in the top 25.

    Would you rank Moss ahead of Hakkinen when Moss never won a world title, but MH won two. Sorry to all you folks in Finland but Moss would have waxed Hakkinens ass in everything from an F1 car to a John Deere.

    Think about it, stats are not the end all. It's one way of looking at the picture.

    There was a stat in F1 magazine a few years ago that looked at reliability of various era's. It was broken down to certain periods of history. If you watched any F1 in the 80's you won't be surprised to know that between 1980 - 1989 the percentage of cars finishing a race was somewhere around 51%. The number jumped to over 70% between 90-96, and I wold venture to guess that the number would be closer to 80% in the current period. The study looked only at mechanical DNF's not driver error or race incidents.

    Certainly Senna would have won more races in the current 10 year period than in the Turbo era.

    We can also look at the competition each faced. Senna raced against and beat 7 different world champions, while MS faced 5 world champions (please don't include Mansell's one off race Magny Cours).

    I think you need to look at a number of different variables, but first and foremost statistics would make up the largest percentage of weight in a scoring system.

    Both Senna and MS were unbelievable in the rain, and both won races in subpar machinery. MS get's the lead by winning a title in a second tier car (Senna won all his titles with a front running car).

    However, MS never ever had to contend with a current World Champion team mate in equal machinery.

    In fact most of his teamates were not even close to Championship material (sorry to Andreas/Irvine and Art/Barechello). Brundle, Ver Stappen, JJ Lheto, Irvine, Herbert, and RB ARE NOT PROST.

    Senna always had to have the best machinery in place to win a title so MS scores on this point by taking a second tier team (which is what Ferrari was prior to 95) and building a winner. Senna never had the time or patience to BUILD A WINNER from scratch.

    However, in terms of facing an equal teamate, with the same equipment, MS NEVER BEAT A WORLD CHAMPION within his own team on equal terms.

    If you are looking at stats only MS wins hands down. But if you look at a few other variables (reliability, competition, .....) It's not clear he is head and shoulders above Senna.

    I think when all is said and done, he will in fact be the greatest ever and this is an opinion from a die hard Senna fan. At some point (and he is very close) he will not only have exceeded all records but will have obliterated them.

    In the end stats are the measure of the man, and more specifically WINNING. Wilt Chamberlin had stats that dwarfed Bill Russells, but Wilt had one Ring and Russell had COUNT EM' 9 rings.

    Was Dan Marino a better quarterback than my hero Bradshaw? Not by the ULTIMATE stat. Bradshaw has four Super Bowl rings, Dan has a cruddy AFC title hat.

    I think for the MS camp to just point to titles misses a lot.

    I think both are the best, but another two or three years in F1, even if he doesn't win more than this years title, will ultimately assure MS as the greatest driver ever.

    Had Senna lived past 94 it might have been different, but this could be said of GV and many other greats whose career was cut short (Jim Clark).

    My father has seen all three race (Senna, Clark, and MS). My dad also competed in German Formula Junior ranks so he has something more than just "armchair" opinions. He swears that Clark was the best he ever saw, including the people we are debating about.

    Just my 02 worth.

    Regards,

    Jon P. Kofod
    www.flatoutracing.net
     
  23. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    They competely forgot me. Very disappointing.
     
  24. pizzadude

    pizzadude Formula 3
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    Feb 20, 2001
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    Schumacher should be #1 and Mario should be much further up the list. Top 5 or at least top 10. He won in EVERYTHNG.
     
  25. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

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    The survery was for F1 drivers and their time spent in F1, therefore Mario isn't near the top of the list because his extraordinary accomplishments outside F1 don't apply.

    Regards,

    Jon
     

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