Thank you for the detailed post. I learned a lot. You provide an interesting explanation regarding how the 205 is measured; I always thought it was the actual tread width. Thank you for the explanation. Why do you "strongly suggest" a TWI (Tire Wear Index?) of more than 200 for 16 inch wheels? It is interesting how modern tire compounds have raised both grip level and durability at the same time. Personally, I chose Bridgestone RE-11As for my 308 because I thought I wanted maximum grip and knew I would probably not wear them out before they got too old. Their grip level is huge though; probably exceeding 1980s R-comps. It is remarkable how much unsprung weight affects the feel of a car. Typically tires are lighter than wheels so given a fixed rolling diameter, smaller wheels with higher profile tires are usually lighter than big wheels and small tires and usually feel better. A big factor is wheel design though; a huge variance in weight between wheel types. It is interesting how the pendulum has swung back and people are actually liking the look of smaller wheels again. Ten years ago, small wheels were considered to be the most ugly vile repulsive style imaginable. Tires with a 25 profile were the height of fashion. Gawd, that's funny.
Let me be the cynic here, (whilst I also put on my flame suit...) and state that one of the main reasons the majority of people here have slowly (or suddenly) become "originality freaks" on these sort of cars is mainly down to financial reasons. There is no question that the current market rewards "originality" in classic cars and so there is an extremely strong incentive for people, at great cost even, to restore the details on their cars back to original. This of course is no secret. Ok I know many people will counter and swear they prefer it original, however if the market didn't care about this then people as a matter of course(due to the fact that we are all unique and have different tastes in things) would have things on their cars that they feel made them quantitatively better. I have no problem in saying that if that was the case, I for one would change my "original" single exhaust(which sounds dire by comparison to the more fruity and much better sounding twin Ansa aftermarket exhaust). As it stands however, and because a large part of my car collection does have a significant financial element to it which I simply can't ignore, I have to pander to what the market wants in the event that I need to sell my cars and therefore keep the single exhaust. From a practical point of view, I'm not saying that the driving experience in my Vetro with the single exhaust is a torture session, all I am saying is that imo it would definitely be enhanced with the "better" quad exhausts. Maybe even with better wheels. Thankfully however I have quite a few other newer cars I can turn to for kicks, and if I want alter accordingly without making too much of a difference to the selling price, and so the Vetro will stay as is "original", hopefully continuing to appreciate ...... Flame away!
I think you're significantly wide of the mark because you ignore the non financial, non obsessive aspect of originality. And that aspect is to do with styling. The designer's original intentions with any car are almost always the best. Updates and facelifts, whether for performance, regulatory or marketing reasons, are very rarely an improvement on original design aesthetics. This holds for the 308.
Except you forget that there is always evolution in automotive design and technology. Nothing stops with the design of anything. Updates do very often improve things. That is how and why the 308 evolved over the years. Sometimes these improvements are small other times they are larger. There is nothing wrong with people wanting to take advantage of newer knowledge or technology. All race teams do. And of course anything learned from a race track will filter down to road cars eventually. I also understand of course that many people are reluctant to embrace change and like to stick with things that are familiar or comfortable to them.
There's a lot of truth in what you say. For years 308s were Ferraris for guys on a budget. Guys who did their own work. Once they got their hands on them they found obvious areas for improvement and most made the mods that made the cars more drivable and reliable. There was little though about resale value because at those low prices the difference that originality brought was marginal. That's changed. Today's owners are more likely to have a shop do the work and most shops don't redesign cars. They fix them the way they "should" be fixed and undo any shade tree mods.
I'll let the next owner worry about a single exhaust and 14 inch wheels. If prices continue to go up, the cost of replacing non original parts like these will be insignificant. But I could be totally wrong, of course!
You guys are all crazy. The 14" and 15" wheels are simply too small for the design of the car, just as the 16" wheels are much too big with those hideous deep dish rears. What you really want is the TRX wheels. It is the perfect middle ground offering big (but not too big) balloon sidewalls, arcane original tire technology, plus the bragging rights of the wheels being so special that only a single tire will fit. In a word.... Awesome!
Which is why I listed my euro bumpers and x-ost exhaust (and tomorrow my 16" rims and tires) for sale, as I am reinstalling the original OEM parts. Don't care about performance and looks going back to all originals incase I get hit by a bus tomorrow and some guy is trying to argue with my kids on why the price is x-y as some items not original. Once you start to hit $100,000+ it can be a well worn driver but it has to be well worn nonmodified. I think I am okay with the bumpers hanging out...I think I should be okay....I think another beer and I should be okay....
I took a side by side picture the other day, to show this..it's in my phone. I will go get it, to post.... brb.
No, thank you. The early 308s are turning a corner...towards "collectible" (whatever that is, they are collected on jack stands in my yard, certainly..).. This means the correct6 EVERYTHING, lighter, details, wheels and so forth. IMO, anything that is NOT an early NON CAT carbed car, falls instead into the 'driver' type of owner. I would agree if you actually wear tires out, with use, 16"s make life easier. I use 16" (Etoile/Goodyear) on my #22127 in Houston, the other two (in the FerrariAds) are on the OEM wheels...and I have maybe five sets of 14"s as I predict they are "coming back" as some of these posts indicate. I also have Goodyear support (via FULDA) on the 14" rims. Mostly Chinese tires in this market now, very few quality offerings, as Carl888 notes in post above
Fantastic post... Thanks for the low down on the updated version. It's been a long while since I've driven on fresh xwx's. The other cool period 70's tire was the. Cn36... Ok in the dry but a widow maker in the deep rain. I recall spinning 720 in a 3rd gear corner.
Perfect! Seriously, if I had a car with TRX originals, I would lean towards that. About the same price as the XWX. Originality does count.
Brian, My reference was to try to secure a TWI of 200 or UNDER for the 308. The problem with tyres in the 16" size is for the majority of cars that use that size, most buyers (And it appears some here!!) consider tyres as a grudge purchase. They only care about price and life, other characteristics have secondary considerations. Cars that use the 16" size are now considerably heavier and lean towards family sedans than the occasionally used 1,300kg 308. So the manufactures have responded by just hardening the compound and softening the sidewall to give a good ride and long life. You cannot go wrong using any any 16" tyre that's Porsche approved on your 308. Just look for the "N" rating on the sidewall. If you look at the 16" tyres manufactured 20 years ago in the 205/55-16 and 225/50-16 size you could chose the following with the TWI to follow: Pirelli P-Zero Giallo 140 Michelin Pilot Sport MXX 140 Continental Sport Contact 140 Bridgestone S-01 140 Good Year Eagle VR50 140. Fast froward to 2014 and we have: Bridgestone S-02 N#(Porsche) 140 Yokohama Advan Sport ZPS 180 Continental Extreme Contact 340 Dunlop Direzza DZ102 460 I won't go into the rubbish from Hankook, Kumho, Gereral etc, but it's all 400-500. Note, the TWI is not a hard and fast rule, a TWI of 140 wont wear out twice as fast and provide twice the grip of a 280. It will wear quite a bit more than a 280 and will provide better grip. The TWI is just a number to provide a guide to the wear rate. It is no coincidence that the Porsche approved 16" tyres carry a low TWI and have stiffer sidewalls than the non "N" version from the same manufacturer. When the cars were new, Ferrari also recommended the same 16" tyres as Porsche did for the 16" rims. On many 328s, they were delivered with the Good Year Eagle VR-50 along with the Carrera 3.2. Tyres like wheels, suspension, colour, oil, brake pads, wine, dogs, women, music etc is always subject to personal preference so just go with what works for you. What works for me is the lowest TWI I can find in a Z speed rating upwards in the factory correct sizes either 14" or 16". I have found that most conjecture and discussion about tyres revolves around price. As we've seen, unless you do almost zero miles, the price of the most expensive tyre for the 308 is almost insignificant in the overall running costs of the car. With regards to the tyre size, you'll find some differences between manufacturers as to how they measure the width. For example, a Michelin XWX 205/70-14 is about 2cm narrower in tread width compared to a Continental Sport Contact 205/55-16 N2. Bizarre, but it is! A final note, the high silica content current crop of tyres definitely don't last as long as the pre-silica compounds. I regularly see slight sidewall cracking on tyres just 7-8 years old now.
I've been around XWXs for a long time, sadly, I have 4 cars that use them, a couple of old Benzes and the 308. That Pirelli CN36 is still manufactured and like the XWX, is made in a modern soft compound. Pretty nice looking in 60 series on the back of your RS 2.7! Here's an old ad. BTW, there is a possibility in the future that Pirelli will re introduce the original pattern Cinturato P7 in the 205/55-16 and 225/50-16 sizes for Porsche and Ferrari fitment in a modern compound. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
i am going back to my 7-1/2 x 14 OEM rims with the 205/70/14 goodyear comp t/a's. i have heard from many sources, they like my black rubbers as high friction factor!
When I embrace change, I get a nice new car rather than trying to retrofit inappropriate ugly stuff on a lovely old car.
I tend to agree with you here. This was one of the deciding features with my 308 purchase. The only alteration to the car was the ANSA twin exhaust.
That's fair enough. However do remember that one mans "inappropriate ugly stuff" is another mans "nirvana". I look at it another way. Whenever a car model comes out, that is never the zenith or ultimate in that cars guise. Even before a model has hit the showrooms, the engineers have already figured out a better way of doing things with that particular car. This happens with EVERY make and model of car. As you can appreciate there are always corporate constraints involved and making money is always, always, the priority with any car company rather than bringing out the best possible spec combination for a given car model. There is always a perpetual struggle going on between the engineers and the accountants. Of course as most people buying the cars are not engineers and so may not know or appreciate this fact, they accept the model as it comes out. For other people however who know more about the engineering aspects of car design they choose to do things differently and opt to improve or enhance their car in a way that suits them. If however you want to call that "inappropriate ugly stuff" then so be it I guess...... Hope everyone has a Happy New year's celebration btw!!
You write about engineers and accountants, Stradman, but you don't mention designers and stylists. Whenever a car model comes out, it is almost always the zenith or ultimate in that car's guise for looks. This rule is particularly true of Italian cars. When Fiorovanti designed the 308's look, he styled it with the available materials and engineering limitations of road going cars in that era (circa 1975). And that includes the 14" wheels. There's just one Italian exception I know of that proves the automotive rule that the first born is the prettier sister: the Integrale. Happy new year to all
Everyone has the right to enjoy their possessions as suits them. If we all agreed what would be the point of the interweb? Happy New Year all.
