Replacement for R-12 coolant (not R-134a) ?

Does anyone have experience with an R-12 replacement product called Enviro-Safe?

See link for info ... http://www.befreetech.com/envirosafe.htm

 

No idea, but several guys on the Maserati yahoo board have suggested using Freeze 12 as you don't need to change seals and is readily compatible with your current system

http://www.freeze12.com/

 

I used it as a short term solution (that has turned out to be 2-3 years now) when I had a fitting leak in a Vintage Air AC/Heat system I had installed many years ago in my chopped 34 Ford coupe. I found the leak, repaired it and put on a new dryer. I planned on getting an R-134 Sanyo compressor to replace the current R-12 one with Enviro-Save in it but it's been working fine (it gets hot here in central Florida) so I haven't bothered yet.

I will say that when I realized my 400iA needed a recharge I acquired R-12 to keep it going. Can't find any leaks and a charge hold up for about 3 years As I said, it gets hot in central Florida and the Ferrari has WAY more glass than the chopped Ford

Al

 

Stay R12 if you possibly can. 134 will not get as cold in a system designed for 12. I converted two cars to 134 and was so upset I paid again to go back to 12. I am happy (and cool) again.

It's just not worth it to change.

 

anyone ever used R-22??

 

Freeze 12!

Works well and it's pretty cheap to boot.

 

I don't know the reason for your interest in alternative gases but please be aware R-12 is technically an excellent product and STILL AVAILABLE at ~$30/lb (wholesale) in 12oz and 30# cans. In a 308 I would really stay with R-12 for it's extra cooling ability compared with environmentally safe gases which require different components, compressor etc, to do a good job of cooling.

 

Sure, I fly one all the time. Seriously though I have freeze 12 in my Mondial and it works great.

 

I'd be careful, were I you, low-inertia rotor systems are hazardous to your health.

H

 

Maybe, but Freeze 12 is 80% R134a . Compatability is highly touted by the sellers of the stuff. Its not as compatible as you think. Check this out:

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/lists/chiller.html#otherinfo

 

You said it, Paul. Why do we keep wanting to reinvent the wheel......Just do a thorough check of the system for leaks, then add the R12 for the MOST efficient cooling available.

 

I gave up on R12 when they changed the laws in NY. I think it was about 8-10 years ago and to use or buy R12 you need a licence and a reclaim system. A 30# can is running about $700-800 and you can't get the 12 oz cans anymore. So I converted to 134 and the system works pretty good. The amout of days I need to use it is limited up here in NY . I can see you guys in the south or southwest it would be a problem. So if you can do it and the cost isn't to bad then go for it.

 

Good point. When I lived in CT, ac was no big deal. Here (and elsewhere) in FL, its serious issue. R134a is OK, and I have converted to it on one of my cars, but its just my "go to work in shorts" car.

 

Lucky you !
R12 has been prohibited in Australia since the early 90's. You can't buy it, period.
And if you import a used car in to the country you need to prove it doesn't contain R12 in the air con system.

As a retrofit I use R134a in my cars and it is OK , not as efficient as R12 and there ares ome compatability issues with seals & lubricants when you change from one to the other.

Regards

Michael

 

Check on eBay. There are plenty of 12 and 14 oz. cans of R12 being sold - albeit not cheaply, but they're available. Some sellers require a handwritten note or no note at all - you just have to look. I have three 14 oz cans stored in my garage in the event that I need them for my Mondial.

 

I've got a single 12oz can of the "real" Iglo R-12...from back in the days. Drop me a PM if you'd like it...Best offer?

Regards,
David

 

Yep I would have known that you could get it on ebay. Not a problem if it is being sold on a private sale as long as the seller and the buyer don't claim it is R12 during he shipping. As I mentioned it is illegal to buy and use R12 in NY unless you have a licence and a reclaim system. So if caught the buyer and seller would most likely get a summons and a fine. It isn't worth the risk to me for the slight difference it would make where I live. I tossed my R12 gage set anyway so I'll stick with 134. Enjoy the ride.

 

Yep I would have known that you could get it on ebay. Not a problem if it is being sold on a private sale as long as the seller and the buyer don't claim it is R12 during he shipping. As I mentioned it is illegal to buy and use R12 in NY unless you have a licence and a reclaim system. So if caught the buyer and seller would most likely get a summons and a fine. It isn't worth the risk to me for the slight difference it would make where I live. I tossed my R12 gage set anyway so I'll stick with 134. Enjoy the ride.

 

Thanks to the EPA (the folks behind the ban of R-12 in the first place) it is VERY easy for anyone to get a license to buy R-12. Check out this site http://www.epatest.com/608/ For 30 minutes of your time and $25 you can take an on-line, open book test which, assuming you pass, will get you an official certificate, suitable for framing, and a wallet card which will allow you to buy freon R-12.

The only odd thing is the license will NOT allow you to buy R-12 in the small cans. You can only buy it in 20 lb bottles or larger. I guess the EPA sees that as some kind of deterrent to the casual mechanic screwing up the atmosphere.

Anyway, it works. All of my cars use R-12 so I took the test, paid the $25 and now have a 30 lb bottle that I paid $310 for. Just over $10 per lb, I can live with that. I had to present my "certificate" at the time of purchase but other than that there were no questions.

There is also another test you can take to get a license to buy R-22 for your home A/C system.

Paul

 

Paul good point and thanks for the website. Unfortunately in NY you need a NY licence which requires you to take an AC course for a few hundred dollars and then proof of ownership of a reclaim system before you can buy the R12. With just the licence you can work on systems buy can't buy the freon. Also most of the shops in our area who sell R12 are not auto type places and more so Heating and AC commerical outlets so proof is necessary. In fact all of our salvage yards need to be certified and if you need to buy any older AC components only they can remove it from the junk car. Kind of got us by the short hairs.

 

One problem with DIY is the mindset that you have to do everything yourself. It's easy enough to make a few calls and see what your local a/c mechanic would charge to add a pound of R-12. They all carry it. It may be worth $100 for $30 worth and he will give you an idea of your pressure levels. Some mechanics actually give you a break on generic Ferrari work.

 

New York, Florida, Calif, etc etc......it appears every state can have a different twist to the legality of R12. It becomes a personal decision based on multiple factors. Are you in the HEAT belt, or up Nawth, can you get a local shop to do it for <$30/lb or not, can you acquire R12 for a quickie test/license or not.....do you want to give up 3-6 deg F temp difference in cooling or not......personal decisions......

 

Actually, Dupont had a much greater role than anyone in lobbying the worlds governments to ban R-12, and funneled millions $$$$ through paid lobbyists who never told who they really represented. The big push came "after" Dupont won a patent for R-134A. By convincing all the worlds car manufactures to use thier product, they are now making billions $$$$. Dupont did the same thing in the 1940's to ban Hemp rope in the US, having just won a patent for nylon and hence, produce nylon rope and have made billions $$$$ there as well. People keep saying follow the money. The older I get the more I listen to them.

 

Be very careful in buying eBAY R12 cans. A lot of them are 'oil charge' cans for adding oil to an A/C system, with only enough R12 to push the oil into the system.

Most older systems have already had the oil topped off too often. Too much oil in the system can cause many different problems, including hydraulic locking the compressor. At best it reduces cooling by reducing the amount of refrigerant in the system.

 

Am I the only one that was really interested in the envirosafe stuff mentioned at the top? I'm considering ordering it to put into my R134a-retrofitted car (not Ferrari) just because it seems like great stuff! I've been disappointed with the performance with 134a.

I was going to research it more first, but this stuff sounds like it's better than R12, no? So why keep beating a dead horse? Am I way off base?