I'm fed up with my 308's lack of AC!!

Just a comment on #8, I would stay with R12 as it blows colder air than the 134 and plus you don't have to do any modification.

 

Agreed. GOTTA upgrade that blower motor. Was a hot one yesterday, A/C seemed reasonably cold but was just not blowing enough. The new motors from SPAL look like they could move a lot more air than the stock unit, though I don't have specs on the stock unit.

I actually put in a call to SPAL but never sync'd up with them... Another hot season is almost gone so this is lower priority again for a year (sigh). I do believe it is doable, and I think the best thing is to pull the evaporator housing with the blower motor in it. I kind of stalled on this because that may have meant pulling cracking the A/C system at the evaporator (not sure) so it's on hold for a bit.

Also make sure you're not getting voltage drop through the switch - measure at the blower itself. Mine didn't seem to have much drop, probably because it's already a relay setup.

If you can upgrade the evap unit while you have the housing out, that might be a good way to go, too.

I would do that + the blower before I touched the compressor, unless you have a known leak in the compressor... Note I did have my receiver/dryer and expansion valve both replaced last summer.

 

I have a 1977 308 GTB, with modified A/C. I replaced the York piston with a Sanden rotary. I also replaced drier and expansion valve.
Kept it R-12. Did all this back in 2005. (actually, I didn't install the stuff, a knowledgable mechanic did!)

Blew cold for a couple years now, just recently noticed that it's not blowing cold enough anymore-must have a leak somewhere.

I have a spare can of R-12, and I just ordered a can clamp, R-12 hoses and gauges yesterday. I was going to post a request here for instructions on proper R-12 freon installation. I know I'll want to get into it a soon as my parts arrive. I'd like to know how to put sealer in there, and then add some R-12. First I'll need to check pressures. Any instruction will be appreciated here! (BTW, no bubbles in the view window..??)

My bigger complaint has always been the weak fan! My updated system will blow colder, but it still doesn't blow nearly enough volume to cool the glass-encased 308 cabin. I would greatly welcome any proven mod to the blower, etc... that would increase cold air output in my car!!

Let us all know what you find out. Most 308 guys on here would probably be game to this mod as well....

Greg in Houston

 

R134 is MUCH cheaper too. I have it in my Lexus SC300 and it will freeze you on low fan speed. No reason why it wouldn't be the same in a Ferrari if properly set up.
I've also heard that the center vent louvers can be removed to increase airflow, which is a major problem.

 

I was trying to think of a way to attach a T to my center duct and make a vent near the driver's side door. Anyone have a better idea?

Aaron

 

If you want to get creative try these guys and see if they can help.
http://www.classicair.com/Catalog/Univ%20Cat%20-%20Page%2017-18.pdf
Maybe they can help with fitting up one of their units. I assume that you'll be willing to change the dash configuration a bit to get a colder system. Take a look and maybe call them.

 

I've been thinking it is probably best, and reversible, to put the Tee behind the stock dual vent duct box. That is where the hose connects. The hose can connect to the Tee, which connects to the stock vent box, and the other side of the Tee connects then to a new hose and then on to another vent box, etc.

Just some ideas in my head, been thinking about the same upgrade.

Phil

 

I dont think there is a problem with the air temperature. Its the weak fan and small air vents. I would never tamper with the dash or door panels to add vents but I think a more powerful fan would help. It would need to be significantly stonger to help ventilation. I will follow this thread closely....

 

You can get just as good of an A/C system using R134 as with R12, if designed correctly.

Systems designed for use with R134 work very well, as you noted with your newer cars A/C. The 308 system is designed for R12, and it is not a great system to begin with.

The secret to a good R134 system is a lot of surface area on the condensor and the evaporator. R134 requires more surface area to generate the same heat transfer.

If you can get a shop to fab you a R134 condensor with the correct fittings for the 308, you will see a much better cooling system using R134 than just changing over to R134. If you can find a R134 type evaporator which will work then that is even better.

I would replace the existing Compressor, and use a fab'd R134 condensor. A friend with a 308qv said he was able to drop his vent temp 10 degrees by simply replacing the compressor with a new one.

The cost of R12 alone should out run the cost of having a condensor fab'd. Of course, good high volume electric fans are a must too.

I must say that any time you replace these components you should replace the dryer and the orifice tube or expansion valve. this goes for any automotive a/c system as the dryer is the filter and the orifice tube or Expansion valve catch all of the trash.

Dan

 

Three cans of R12 (my A/C is blowing very cold with just 2) cost me $105.

Aaron

 

There is always propane.

 

DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT convert to R134.


Am I clear?

IF you are attempting to get a colder a/c converting to 134 is NOT THE SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I have posted on this subject extensively and I am speaking from first hand experience from two conversions. 134 will NOT blow as cold as 12 in a system that was originally designed for 12. IT WILL NOT (I am still trying to be very clear here)! The a/c in a 308 is poor enough, don't make it even less efficient with 134 OR FREEZE 12! Freeze 12 is 80% 134 - or in other words Freeze 12 IS 134, don't listen to the mechanic that is trying to sell you that **** while he tells you it is the same thing as R12. It isn't.

Sure 134 blows cold in a new car but don't let that fool you into believing it will behave the same in a converted system.

For the last time; 134 will NOT blow AS COLD as 12 in a converted system.

 

Dr. T you are right. 134 is less efficent as 12 so they increased the size of the system to compensate for the efficencies. In cases where you folks need the extra cooling (south and southwest) where the outside summer temps are in the 90-100* range I would think twice before I would convert. I converted all of my older cars a few years back when they outlawed sales of r12 in New York. Also the price went sky high so it wasn't wort it for me to run r12 after my compressor blew. But the weather in this part of NY is not a problem with running 134 for me. 95 % of the time it is sufficent where I live so for the cost of a shot of 134 every other year it doesn't bother me. For all of the others that live in the land of high heat I would think before I went to 134. Dr. T. is correct so think before you jump.Also if you go to some of these hot rod AC guys you can get their small package AC kits and maybe get the cooling you are looking for. The evaporators are designed for 134 and they also come in a slim package. I'm sure they would work with someone on an installation. Someone just needs to make the contact and see what can be done. Enjoy the ride

 

Take a look at some of the stuff the street rod boys are running. I know every one says stick with the R12 but what are you going to do when you can' buy the stuff any more or the price is way out of line. I think when I get ready to take on this challenge I'll take a good look at the street rod stuff. When the Autorama swings by in Feb. I'll be talking to companies that sell street rod A/C systems is see what they offer.

Jim

 

I recently installed a Sanden compressor in my '70 Jaguar XKE Coupe and converted to R134a. While it is true that R134 does not produce the same amount of cooling as R12, with the new compressor and receiver/dryer, the stock system in my old Jag produced plenty of cold air. And I just drove the car to Indianapolis from NJ, and back, in 95+ degree heat, and it blew plenty cold. I can't believe that the otherwise stock system in an old XKE is any more efficient than in the 308 or 328. I would definitely consider swapping the old York compressor for a Sanden rotary, new receiver/dryer, and converting to R134 (despite the Good Doctor's warning to the contrary), and combine that with an upgrade to the blower motor to move more air. One of the big problems with these old systems is freezing in the evaporator. Moving more air will help avoid that.

YMMV, but that's how I'd approach it. And if anyone has a model number for a Sanden replacement for a 308, please post, along with photos of the installation and any suggestions on fitting to the existing or modifed bracket, belt, hoses, etc. A nice step by step with pics would be even better. And a make/model number/source for a blower motor/fan replacement would be great also.

 

+1 with Dr. T. If it takes a well designed system to properly function with 134a that must mean that none of the car companies have figured it out yet. I have driven cars from all of the U.S. companies here and none of them blow air cold enough. The auto temp control on my Chrysler 300 has to keep the fans at full speed for at least 20-30 minutes to get the temp to where it can run an a lower speed. I am taking the 308 in for a major service tomorrow and need to have the A/C recharged. I bought my 30# cylinder of R-12 in 1990 just in case, but haven't had to open it yet.

 

Steve, keep in mind that he is upset over a "lack" of a/c. That being the case he needs to not make things worse with the 134. That's just going to upset him more, especially if/when (and I am betting "when") he wants to change things back - he will have one big fat labor bill to empty all that 134 oil out of the system.

No one has EVER changed to 134 to get the a/c working better. No one, anywhere on this planet, has done that. People change to 134 ONLY due to costs or to save that little spotted owl.

Because of how he titled this thread, I am just trying to save him a BIG fat headache. 134 is not the answer to what he is asking here.

 

OK got ya

 

Doc,

I agree with you that if he does nothing but switch to R134, it will make the situation worse, assuming that his system is working properly and he has a full charge of R12 in it now. But I would bet that his AC is not working properly, that there is a problem somewhere in the system, either low coolant, air in the system, bad expansion valve, problem with the compressor, etc. When I did the XKE, the first thing we did was make sure that the condensor was clean, inside and out, that the expansion valve and evaporator were in good condition, and that the fan was working properly so as to move the air through the evaporator. Then and only then did we change the compressor and hoses, put in a new receiver/dryer, and then vacuum out the system and do a prolonged vacuum test on it. Then filled with R134 and tested. The system blew nice and cold.

But, of course, the simple reality is that old AC systems simply don't work as well as new ones, even with new compressors. There is a company down in Texas, IIRC, that builds aftermarket and replacement systems that substitute new condensors, Sanden compressor, high efficiency/high capacity evaporator, and other new components, to "beef up" the cooling capacity of these old systems. I've been trying to find the name of the company and will post it when I locate it.

In the meantime, I think the first step he needs to take is to verify that the AC is actually working properly as is before he starts fooling around with it. He may find that there is a problem that needs fixing, whatever it might be, and if fixed, will give him better performance than what he is dealing with now. Just a thought.

Regards,
Steve

 

BTW, one thing to check -- make sure that your heater valve is closing all the way. In more than one case, I have found the heater valves not fully closing on various cars, even when the lever on the dash or center console is in the fully closed position. Assuming the 328 is similar to the 308, the cable that controls the valve is adjustable, and you must be sure it is adjusted to get that valve fully closed. Otherwise, you will be adding more heat to the cabin which is the last thing you want. And don't assume the valve is working properly. Start the car and check to be sure that coolant is not flowing when the valve is fully closed.

Steve