I would like to see a 16M that sold for $300 in the last 30 days, Market will be (if is not truly at this time) $200-250 for actual sale prices dependent on miles and the few options there were. Market is not getting stronger the 458 spider is going to kill the price on these and those potential buyers, myself included know this. So why would we buy now, just to say we paid XXX amount for it? The scud was killed by the 458 coupe, the spider will do the same to the 16m.
On what actual market statistic do you base your $200 - $250 "actual" sales price or are you just another speculator that the market for these cars is down (which Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder could see)....
Interesting that your earlier post stated that you were "in at $225.000". Yet, this thread mistakenly indicated that a 16M was available at $229,000 (certainly negotiable to $225,000), and you responded by saying that you are now a buyer at "maybe $210-200". It would appear that, no matter where prices ultimately go, you'll always be a "make believe buyer" forever chasing a lower price. In the meanwhile, the "real buyers" will continue to enjoy one of the greatest rides ever built. Tim
Tim, unfortunately, the majority of posters here (there are a numer of quality exceptions) NEVER put their money where their mouth is. Instead, they chase the price until it goes farther and farther only to never really buy. if you only had a $1 for every "wait until this Spring and the prices will be at".....
I know James and he is a real tifosi. I believe he just sold his 360 spider and is either looking at a 458 or 16M. As far as waiting, I don't think there's anything wrong with watching the market a bit- especially if you live in Ohio where every street has an inch of salt on it. I for one, am ready to buy and am tempted to pay more than I probably should for what I want, but if I can save a little- why not?
Scott, your a quality exception to the rule and an owner (prior owner and soon to be new owner)...not a guy who just comes on here without actual data pontificating about things of which they aren't fully factually aware.
Thanks Joe. I don't know about quality but my Ferrari fund is burning a hole in my pocket and I have garage space patiently waiting! Did get the RS out today and took it up to 7k rpm for the first time! It howled
Seriously, I feel like Ohio really went nutty with the salt this year and it has hardly even snowed. I have to turn off PSM on the Porsche or the computer keeps taking power away from the wheels with any throttle action at all. Of course, the cold air is probalby helping make some bigger power, but with PSM off I can break traction on all four tires at 50mph in second gear from all the damn salt!
God I love guys like you, yep, I did say I was in at $225, if it was the car I want........now having seen one at $240 and another at $229 and the 458 spider on the way it is not ridiculous to think they could go lower. I don't know about you if I can save $25g and not throw it away I want to. Scott is correct that I am no hurry since driving one in the next 4 months were we live may not be the best idea. Some may not care about such things which is fine for them but I do. Wherever the market is in April may is where it will be, I have no allusions of grandeur that I have any influence on it. Grigio Silverstone with a red or nero interior for $225 sign me up, nero on nero pass, and if it is not there in the spring no big deal there are options. I just can't get enough of the haters on this and any other public forum though, makes me smile. Happy New Year kids, and Scott when do I get that ride in the RS?
Joe look at the actual sales prices of the Scud pre and post 458, it is not unreasonable to think the same will happen with the spider. This market has been soft for the last two years, and the high line car dealers I know don't see a change in the near future. That is my point. One 16m in Indy just changed hands (private party) for $235 with 3200 miles, Rosso/Nero, but it is more fun to write what you wrote, and likely more fun to read.
I don't think Joe is a "hater". Its just that this same discussion comes up everytime there is a new model launch. To tell you the truth, for those of us who have been around here a while.......its kinda getting old. For sure the dynamics of the Ferrari "game" have changed. No longer can you flip a new model for big bucks or drive it essentially free for the first year. The speculators are out of the game for now. But they have been replaced by what I would call a new breed of speculators. Those who pontificate their view of where prices are going to in the hopes of picking one up at a much lower price. There is no doubt prices are and will continue lower. But where do you step in? I'm sure a 200k buyer would love a 16M at that price point......and at the rate its going it might happen sooner then later. But I'm almost certain once that happens, the rant on the forums by said buyers will be what a fantastic Ferrari they just purchased and any talk of it depreciating from that point is unlikely. Again........same tired old story.
Kuzi, good points. I don't have a horse in either race, and when I do buy the next F-car I have no allusions that it will not depreciate further. I lost 20% on my 360 and feel lucky, but did not lose sleep over it. Price is not the sole determining factor for me, but just prefer not to get caught in what I "think" may be a coming free fall. I am happy to be wrong, just sharing an opinion. If recent history is an indicator it may be accurate. Also want to clarify that my hater comment was not directed at Joe, it was a generalization of one of the sub-cultures that exist in a forum. Best wishes
It's the same guy that says I'm going to wait until it hits $175k when it finally reaches $200k. I agree with you K. Too many people spend time on the internet hoping for another big drop instead of buying a car and having some fun. 300k 250k or 200k on one of these makes no difference it's the car and what you get out of it after a weekend trip with friends. Anything more than $50k for any car in this world is crazy imho so when they get to 4-6 times this Sanity has flown right out of the window so why worry about an extra $25-75k.
Kuzi's read on my comments are spot on. James, next April when you sink your teeth into the purchase of a 16M, are you telling me there won't be 10000 fchat responses suggesting you wait until august so they drop another $25k? And then, wait until April 2012 because they'll be down another $25k. Buy a car now and overpay for it to sit in the garage while it snows? Not what I'm suggesting but I find it frustrating that guys on this forum buying $300k cars are kaboodling over $20k here and $20k there. While others will never buyer because of the next downturn or the next model on the way. It is the same on every forum. Totally agree. Just sad and frustrating some times
Joe I'm saying I will do what I did with my 360. Buy it when I can use it, and pay whatever the market is(I won't be listening about waiting) I bought the 360 on May 1 last year, just sold it to move up. I loved the car, and have not lost sleep on the loss in $. I am in waiting for a 16m or 458. I have until April to decide on the 458 as that is when I would have to spec it, in the mean time if the 16m drops I will hop on it instead. Either way I am a buyer, I don't understand how it is bad for me to say that I would rather pay less than more? Is it self serving yes, will some people get hurt if it falls further yes, but these toys are depreciating assets (and I really hesitate calling a car a real asset) so owning them is stupid but damn what a ride eh?
Yeah, and the guy BEGGED to pay 100K over then promptly filmed himself throwing $100 bills out the window! uhhhhhhh, I hope he has 3,000 of them handy for the sequel.....
I just went through the painful task of selling my 09 scud coupe, and one thing is for sure-demand just isn't there. Just because there are tons of cars listed for sale with high offers, doesn't necessarily make that the market price. Unfortunately we don't have a scrolling real time ticker with 16m sales going across. I think with scud coupe prices getting bashed, the 458 spider on its way, the current weather in a large part of the country, and lack of demand for this model-a realistic fair value is 225-250. I'm not saying don't go buy a car you love, for a higher price-- ive done that several times, however when it comes time to trade up for that next model it may be harder, more painful then one had originally thought.
what's amazing about the depreciation on the 16M is that your initial thought would be that, with only 499 of them built, the few on the market would hold price. The fact that it isn't (and I have no clue what the current selling price is a what future prices will hold in store for the 16M) is illustration of the "market" for all of the carved up recent Fcars: CS, Scud and 16M. I sold both of my Scuds and both of my CSs and lost money on all of them, but nothing worse than the loss on the Scud. The fact is there aren't enough buyers for the raw Ferraris of the new milllenium. Think about the CS; while it is holding a relatively decent value over the 360, the spread is and will tighten. It is the same 20 guys on here chatting about the CS but that doesn't illustrate a wide enough margin of people to fill the demand side of the curve. The same will hold true for the Scuds. The 458 market will destroy the "value add" associated with the Scud. Again, though, the 16M decline (whether currently $250k, $275k or whatever it is) amazes me because it is truly limited production. Illustration that everyone should buy em, drive em and not worry about the price when selling em.....that's my motto.
I think that people are neglecting to give the 16M's depreciation a proper context. Assuming a current value of $270,000 (my best guess), this would represent an approximate drop of 16% in an 18 month period (average length of ownership since new). Frankly, I can't identify many new cars that have dropped so little in this same economically challenged time frame. No matter, in the big picture, the price drop is irrelevant once you get out and drive a 16M. Tim
Tim, keep in mind with tax, and what people paid "over list" there is no way $315-330k was the actual price. Those that bought them at retail could shed more light than I, but the few dealer "invoices" or sell sheets I have seen are in the $400k range with tax. That is more in line with the current Scud depreciation. Joe, I agree that with the limited numbers of the 16m it is amazing that we are even having a depreciation conversation. A year ago I did not think the Scud would have slipped like it has.
My brother and his good friend bought 16Ms. His friend paid MSRP of 323K. My brother got a $5K discount off of MSRP. MSRP was $318K and my brother paid $313K. I've never seen any 16Ms in the $400k range. The highest 16M I saw was around $338K then add the tax.
