I'm not looking to pick a fight, but my context is accurate. Adding the sales tax to the MSRP does not alter my conclusion. In the end, my mathematical argument is sound. The 16M has held it value better (on a relative basis) that other cars (Ferrari's or otherwise) in this difficult economic climate. For those of you who doubt, do the math. To further muddy the water, most people lease their new Ferrari (contrary to conventional wisdom). In this instance, the sales tax is only paid on a pro rata basis for the term of the lease. and therefore not lost in its entirety. Also, my 16M came loaded with all factory options (including the rare and expensive $10,000 carbon fiber rocker panels), and did not come close to $400,000 (as claimed by Sellnit). Tim
Tim- Do you have the window sticker? Seems like a really good way to settle any questions. Plus stickers are valuable pieces of history and I would love to see a 16M window sticker. Taz Terry Phillips
I'm not going to post the window sticker (to much hassle), but I'm happy to post the details: MSRP $308,000 Preparation and delivery $350 Red Brake Calipers $1040 Underdoor carbon $8668 Handy Fire Extinguisher $585 Radio, Nav, and Bluetooth $3080 Destination Charges $2000 Total Retail Price $326,723 The majority of the 16M's were delivered without the underdoor carbon, at a total retail price of $318,055. Throw in a national sales tax average of approximately 7%, and you have a total price of approximately $340,0000. For the record, I did not pay above sticker. Tim
Tim- Thanks. Valuable information. I can scan faster than I can type, but I am weird that way. Lots of practice scanning WW-I aviation photos. Taz Terry Phillips
Joe makes a good point on rarity; 3500+ SCUDs 500 16Ms Does anyone have any personal experience on how a 16M drives compared to a SCUD? Are they exactly the same?
More than 500 16ms were made fyi Also the Enzo number is false, 16m is a all around more harsh ride. Louder and more raw.
I picked up a new unregistered bianco fuji 16M here in Switzerland last June, MSRP inc tax and options was CHF 430k, but I paid 330. The car not only has the carbon door covers but also a carbon underfloor, itself a 25k option according to the sticker. I'm assuming with 5000km on the clock it's now worth about 280-290 in this market, maybe less, but I really don't care because the enjoyment I get when driving it is priceless.
I think this conversation is healthy. I am happy you bought yours at MSRP, but many paid over MSRP(similar to the 458 last year) add $50k over msrp to your price and tax and you are easily at $400, that was my point. We can just agree to disagree. I think Stokpro may have some insight to his pals in Seattle as I do to a few friends here in OH that paid a hefty $ to get exactly what they wanted when they wanted it. I wish I was in the position to do the same, btw would love to see a few pics of your car, what color of stripe on the nero? PS Window sticker will not help, as the money paid over would only show on the sell sheet/dealer paperwork, not on the sticker.
I don't believe any of the 16m's in Seattle were over MSRP. A couple purchased used were well under as well. There are only 4-6 of them up here but the customers that ended up with them from FoS would not have paid anything over.
Silver stripe...please feel free to view several pictures on my Fchat profile. There are many others floating around the Southern CA portion of FChat. Tim
Several points to add: First, all new and nearly new Ferraris depreciate, with the possible exception of the supercars such as the Enzo, F50, 288 etc. Look at the '90's models such as the 550, 355, 456. They all loose about 2/3's to 3/4's of their MSRP over time, bottoming out at the 12-15 year mark. Expect the same on these newer cars. While 16M production is limited and therefore will command a premium in the long run, it's premium is only in relation to the 430 spider and possibly the upcoming 458 spider. In other words, it will still depreciate quite a lot, possibly to only 40% of MSRP. How much ultimate depreciation an owner experiences will therefore be determined by where on the curve one gets on and then off. Second: discussing depreciation of Ferraris compared to other more normal cars is silly. F cars typically get driven 2K miles per year, sometimes less. Other cars usually have 12K miles or more per year on them. So saying that Ferraris depreciate less than other brands is nonsense. Put 120K miles on a 16M over the next 10 years and expect to get very little back on your trade when you're done. The previous paragraph's comments only applies to Ferraris with average mileage by F car standards. IMO, the main problem with all Scuds, including the 16M, is that the price premium over it's base model was too much, especially in a declining economy. Sadly I knew this early on and sold my Scud over 2 years ago when it still had some value relative to MSRP.
BUX, I've driven both several times (and back to back) and for the most part they're the same but as h2oskier pointed out, 16M is more raw and louder. Chassis definitely feels stiffer in the 16M. Here this should help: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249695 http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Ferrari-430-4.3-V8-Scuderia-Spider-16M/241295/
For my part, I didn't mean that you should add the sales tax (or reg fees for that matter). I just meant the price after markup. Sales tax and registration are local matters and can't be used for general comparisons. I also didn't bother to do the math, but I believe you that the 16Ms are holding up better. But not as well as you make it out to be.
I doubt that most people lease their Ferrari, but anyway in the case of a lease there is zero depreciation since you don't own the asset in the first place. Your cost is 100% operating cost. That of course only matters when figuring the depreciation for your own personal benefit. Leased cars eventually make it to the used car sales market and you can still compare depreciation. In that case the fact that they were leased has no bearing (since we don't figure taxes and fees in depreciation).
Umm, maybe I'm just mis-understanding your explanation, but by definition, leasing is the financing of depreciation over a specified term... Difference between the sale price and residual, charged at an interest rate, spread over a term... You also cover 100% of the operation cost. I vote that since there are too many variables, for the sake of this discussion, depreciation is based on MSRP... +/- MSRP, Sales Tax rates, etc all vary too much and are often case-by-case
A reliable Ferrari of North America executive told me that "more than 50% of domestic Ferrari buyers lease their car". Furthermore, an Auto Gallery (one of the countries larger volume dealers) senior executive told me that 70% of buyers lease their car. Reasons include the following: 1) Given the short length of time that people generally own their Ferrari, a lease allows for considerable sales tax savings. 2) Many Ferrari owners are leveraged, and would be hard pressed to come out of pocket for the entire sales price. 3) Some Ferrari owners have alternative investments, and would rather not tie up such a sizable amount of liquidity. 4) Some buyers take a "creative" tax approach, and write off some portion of the lease as an expense. Based on my observations, the majority of Ferrari owners will not admit the following (silly, but true): 1) They used some type of financing to acquire their car. 2) They are members of the Lucky Sperm Club, and did not have to work hard for their Ferrari. This current Fchat thread addresses this topic: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308740 Tim
Very interesting. I didn't consider leasing, but then again, my first Ferrari was not new. Still I probably could have. Given the difference between what I paid and what I sold for, I would be really interested to know how that would've compared to a lease. I assumed most people just wrote a check and bought these things.
Scott, nor did I consider it. I wrote the check as well and assumed most did also. After sitting down and being "educated" by my accountant over lunch today it deserves consideration. Being "stuck" in it is a concern though.
I'll be the "turd in the punch bowl". We had a thread on leasing not long ago. I can tell you right now, leasing a Ferrari is the worst, most expensive way to own one. A new 458 today would lease out in $12K per month range. Maybe more. Guaranteed, count on it! The problem with leasing a Ferrari is you have to use the 3rd party to do the lease. They "got's to get theirs" too.
That...is insane! No Ferrari is worth that. I'm gonna do cash. I'm running into a little problem though...I'm starting to really like the 458- especially in grays and silvers. My sensible side says the Scud is a better buy, but the pics in the 458 section in gray or silver are telling me otherwise