Art, that's a website address, not an email address. Click on the link. You too can contact the Fast Lady: http://joyrainey.co.uk/contact-joy/ Image Unavailable, Please Login
Mr. Olczyk, the "as found" photos showing the car with left-hand drive are not flipped. If they were, the intake manifold would be shown on the opposite (left) side of the motor. Simon Moore (via Colin Crabbe) confirms that the car was left-hand drive when it was originally found in Ethiopia/Eritrea. What I don't read anywhere is why Enzo would have chosen a 5-7 year old motor for a racecar. At that point in time he still would have had access to up-to-date engines. Also, the TWO different numbers found punched into the frame (833889 and 833552) should be a red flag, as should the absence of an "SF__" serial number which the Scuderia used to identify cars (including 2300 and 2600 cars) that they themselves had built. Even though the crankcase legs were cut off (which is why there's no "2______" 8c-based serial number on the block) IF this was a Ferrari-built car even the block itself would have an SF__ number stamped somewhere on it. This numbering convention is unique to the cars that Enzo's scuderia built up, from 1933 onward. They numbered cars like this EVEN when they did no actual modifications to the engine internals from stock. The earliest example of Ferrari numbering its specially built cars is for a 6c chassis, Scuderia Ferrari numbered SF24, confirmed by Italian registration documents (dug up by Mr. Moore) as a 6c1750...in 1933. So the only documented evidence all points to signs that SHOULD be present on that car IF it were built by Enzo, yet there's none to be found. Furthermore, this sentence "There are no details of where 813392 went wich means that the chassis was used for a special project." is so dubious in its assumption as to be laughable. It might as well have said "There are no details of where 813392 went wich means that the chassis was used for a rocket-powered spaceship." You obviously have access to the car and I would imagine have books like Fusi/Hull/Cherrett/Moore to reference. What about the car seems related in any way to the DOCUMENTED practices of the scuderia at that time period? Where are the drawings mentioned in this statement "Luigi Fusi, the Alfa Romeo historian who had known and worked with Enzo Ferrari since 1921, sent the owner over one hundred drawings appertaining to the car, including many drawings of the original style bodywork which had been fitted to the car." To me, that sentence reads like an auction description of a car that ain't quite right... "appertaining" "of the original STYLE" Neat car and all, but the evidence, physical or otherwise, points to it being a bitsa. It's admirable that you're trying to search for hidden history, but you can't simply wish that something were the way you wanted or hoped it would be. By the way, maybe it's been mentioned, but who created this website: http://alfa8c2600.blogspot.com/ ? Cris
Cris, I think Philippe's original point was was that this work was done POST SF, which might remove the SF from the serial numbers. However, since it is an earier block, this seem unlikely. Otherwise, interesting points. Regards, Art S.
Art, thanks for clarifying that...too much in this post to read. That said, though, I feel like the theory that the engine in this car is the one out of 8c 2311247 is the most probable. That blogspot page though, it's full of the strangest statements about the car. Why on earth would Enzo have built (or been comissioned to build) a car with an old engine and a new chassis, with left-hand drive, for a race that was two years away? One has to look at the documented pattern Enzo had followed up to that point, and then explain why with this car he deviated from it in so many odd ways. There's plenty of evidence suggesting that Ferrari strengthened 8c frames through boxing and other techniques. Does anyone have any experience with 6c corto frames? Are they superior in stiffness (or any other way) to an 8c frame (modified or standard)? And what of the Tripoli-Tobruk race in 1940? Did the event actually end up happening or was it canceled due to the war? I know the 1939 race happened (1000 miles long!) but if the 1940 race happened then results exist and could go a long way towards proving some of the otherwise-unfounded ideas about this car. Fun stuff. I don't post often but this subject's got me going. Cris
Great stuff. We have 2 more numbers causing confusion. Still, this may bring us closer to the truth. Neither one of these numbers show up in Fusi's book. Lets focus on what I read as "ser 2201056" (but could also be 220L056): Conceivably, this could be an engine number. According to Fusi, 8C 2300s in 1932 had chassis and engine numbers in the range of 2211051 to 2211097. No match, but the 3rd digit in the declaration could have been wrong or wrongly declared. If this was the engine number, it may have been erased during the modifications Rayney made. The 2nd number does not make any sense to me. However, let me share some observations: The first things that struck me about the document were the dates and the name of the vessel: Date of Report: 15-Nov-1967 Time goods were cleared out of charge: 21-Nov-1967 Station Date Stamp: 17-Jun-1969 Import Ship or Aircraft: Lion of Judah What puzzles me about it is that the date stamp is about 19 month after the "Date of Report" and the "Time goods were cleared out of charge." The 2nd puzzling thing is the name of the vessel declared as "Import Ship or Aircraft": Lion of Judah. The name feels a bit over the top (I had indeed a LOL moment) and so does the story about this being the first Ferrari after Enzo leaving Alfa. But it should be relatively easy to confirm if a vessel of this name existed, if it was in London at the time (coming from North Africa) and if a Customs record of this type and with this information exits.
The Customs form shows duplicate hence the date gap "The modern Ethiopian shipping line was established in March 1964 in an agreement between the Imperial Ethiopian Government and Taurus Investment Inc. The first three vessels were launched in Rotterdam in 1966. The two cargo liners, MV Lion of Judah and MV Queen of Sheba and one 34,000 tonnes oil tanker Lalibela" Which tends to suggest the vessel existed and was on the route at the time
Great. Can you tell us where the information about the Ethiopian shipping line and the three vessels is coming from?
Bl==dy hell you are demanding !!! How about the Ethiopian Embassy ? http://www.ethioembassy.org.uk/articles/Newsletter%20March%20-%20April%202004.htm And the customs element is conjecture on my part based on the word 'duplicate' and the difference in dates OK ?!?!
Sorry for appearing to be demanding. The trouble is, a quote without citing the source has no credibility. Therefore, thank you for providing the link.
In Post #80 and in the photos on the web site selling the car, it's RHD. Could the "old" photos of the chasis and LHD simply be a mistake...directing us to a totally different car? If not for those old photos showing the LHD car, would this claim be more plausible? Those old pics seem to be the sticking point. So, for arguments sake, let's for a minute forget the old pics. Could this car, RHD as in the color pics, be the real thing? I am just curious...a lot of you have knowledge of Ferraris that far surpass mine...I wish I had some of your knowledge (and some of your cars too ).
Simple answer. Why doesn't the firm selling the car snap a photo of the chassis footboxes as they exist in the car today?
Moore, in his decades (yes, he's been researching these cars for over 40 years at this point) of research turned up registration papers for the 8c #2311247. The number itself puts it at the very end of the 3rd series of cars. I don't have all my material or books here with me right now but I quickly scanned the 1967 edition of the International Register of 8c-2300 Alfa Romeo Cars and Owners (VARI/Jackson Brooks) and 2311247 isn't mentioned at that point in time. Brooks relied on actual owners, for the most part, to send him information, so at least as far back as the 60s the car was unknown. Mr. Moore picks up the car's trail... Government records list 2311247 as having, at that time, a temporary body. No photos have turned up. It's unknown whether this would have been simply a cowl and bonnet made by Alfa and the car would have received a custom/coachbuilt body, or if it was something along the lines of the early cars they ran Moore mentions that the car was at that time listed as having a value of Lire 70,000, which seems exceptionally high, considering it wasn't wearing a real body. Could the cost/value have been due to an uprated engine of 2600cc capacity? Maybe, but I can find nothing linking its first owner with Ferrari, Alfa, the Scuderia, etc. in a way that would indicate he would receive a car with such a special engine. The car hung about in Italy with a variety of owners until 1939, at which point Vittorio Bianchi Melilla took 2311247 to Eritrea (Ethiopia.) Eritrean government registration documents list the car as having an open body; other than that, nothing else is known. So here is evidence of an 8c actually being in the country where the bitsa/813392 was found. 2311247 has never been found, but evidence points to the engine in 813392 being the one from 2311247. Why? 1) Its documented Eritrean history 2) The fact that, despite what many will have you believe, there were not a lot of these engines made (and the one in 813392 is by all accounts a genuine 8c2300 engine. Do photos exist of the 4 carb manifold that was supposedly found along with the spares? Moore doesn't mention anything about it. It would be interesting to see if the manifold was professionally made or if it was something that someone cobbled together. And again, does anyone have any info on the 1940 race? The shipping document is a nice artifact, but it doesn't add anything to the discussion; no one doubts the car was found in and exported from Ethiopia. I keep going back an re-reading that blogspot page...the more I read it the more I come to the conclussion that 813392 in its present form is the result of two things: a) Someone getting REALLY lucky down in Ethiopia, somehow coming into a variety of unrelated but very nice Alfa parts and b) Mr. Rainey's efforts find and then use as many genuine Alfa parts as possible while he built 813392 up into running form. Would love to see pictures of the spares that came with the car. http://alfa8c2600.blogspot.com/ and Rainey mention everything from Alfa GP seats and steering wheels to a gas tank that was "probably from a 2.9 Mille Miglia car" but provides no as-found pictures of these items. The car didn't have any of those items actually attached to it at the time it was found...pictures clearly show a three spoke wheel. Sorry for the long response. Cris
so he is not asking for an opinion? do any of us remember what he started the thread with: 08-30-2007, 03:46 PM Olczyk Olczyk is offline Karting Rossa Subscribed Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: France Full Name: Olczyk Posts: 236 1938 Scuderia Ferrari built Alfa Romeo 8C 2600 http://alfa8c2600.blogspot.com/ What you think, any period photos ? __________________ Philippe Olczyk Books - Alfa TZ - Bizzarrini - De Tomaso - Ferrari - Lotus 47 - Porsche 904 Reply With Quote anyhow, it is my opinion that Olczyk should be banned from this forum the ALFABB and any other respectable forum. here is why: 1. he did not acknowledge that he is related (biz or otherwise) with the seller 2. he continues to post shady cars in forums in an effort to establish facts/histories. 3. take a look at this site: www.classicscars.com - enough said 4. he continues to offend ppl with diff opinions - and/or sue them 5. he is linked with questionable cars on a reg' basis bad guy - out! Moderator ban this bad guy now before he contaminates this great hobby more... outtttttttttt! elad
...of absolutely nothing. Which is my point. The website makes mention of "The car came with a 4-spoke Grand Prix type, wood rim steering wheel." but the pictures of the car as-found show a three spoke wheel. What's interesting is that Alfa gp cars (like the 158 of 1938) featured 3-spoke steering wheels–wood rimmed, not bakelite (or whatever) which the one in the as-found photo clearly shows. My overarching point is that there are a lot of statements about the car that the as-found photos either contradict or fail to prove. And much of the rationale for thinking that this car is somehow a product of Enzo's hands/mind is based on this. The information is flawed or unsupported, and as a result the conclussion (that Enzo made this car) is also flawed and unsupported. In that other thread we shall not mention by name, a car you're intimately familiar with has had the case for its history supported by REAL physical evidence, backed with research...though some assumptions are made, those assumptions are not at all unreasonable. This bitsa should be so lucky to have that kind of scholarly effort put into establishing its history. Unfortunately, it is not. Cris
As you see, it s a other evidence and this papers are inside the book of Murray. If some members have read the book like they say, they should have saw it !
Another arrogant and insulting post. Especially from someone who denies answering any question. If Mr. Olczyk had read the book himself, he would not have written on page 1 that "Enzo Ferrari himself built the car" since Murray states Enzo personally said he didn't. Either Mr. Olczyk is the ultimate arrogant in his latest post, if he didn't read the book, or he is at least unfair - not to say more - on page 1 if he did and still wrote that Enzo built the car. Links with the seller, as suggested in previous posts, would make the case worse. In my opinion, this deserves some action from the moderators.
Yes, the moderators should kick you out of this forum, you hyde behind a "pseudo" you are not a member, just here to put some fire. You never read the book, but you are going to explain us that you are clever... The thread was for honnest people, not ghost ! I m not here to answer questions from people like you who don t pay to be here, hyde behind a pseudo, and don t known anythings about this matter. If you are jealous that I known the seller, I m sorry for you but I known most of the good cars dealers in the planet.
Ooops, just noticed I had been misspelling Murray Rainey's name for some time -- it's "Rainey" not "Rayney." My apologies.
I think this is getting over my head, but if I were to sell my car, I would not post those type of pics, just the type the seller posted. Anyone interested in further inspection can do so in person...of course I have a 308, not an alleged 1938 Alfa. Jim, you are clearly better versed in this area than I am. I'm just wondering if it's possible that the car is legit and the original poster has wrong pics. If the main argument is LHD vs. RHD, all pics of the known car show RHD. Would that, in fact, legitimize the claim if not for the original poster's pics and inflamatory comments? Again, I am no expert and know nothing about this era of vehicle except that I love them. If the original poster is affiliated with the seller, then he should be fired because he may be counter productive in selling the vehicle. I am just curious if there is a chance it's real? I have learned quite a bit from this thread from those in the know...now, if someone wants to give me one of their historic Ferraris, I promise I will be a great student and take care of it...I have a 166 taste with 308 budget Olzcyk...you have made some inappropriate remarks, in my opinion. This forum is designed for EXACTLY what you got. Many of the people on Ferrari Chat ARE experts!!! And, they don't need to see the vehicle, or have your certification and approval, to be experts. If you didn't want the kind of responses you got, you should have never posted here. I wish I had 1% of the knowledge others have (and maybe the same % of their available funds). This is not a Honda Forum claiming to know Ferraris...this is a Ferrari Forum with members who LIVE Ferrari. If you don't like the responses, stop replying. You have lost the ability to obtain whatever information you were seeking as you have lost credibility. Just my $0.02.
