sf10212, elads, before you start with the personal attacks against our subscribed users, think about filling in your profile so that others know who you are. You're obviously both new to this forum and might not understand the way that we do things here, so let me explain. In the Vintage forum, we do not attack each other like a bunch of 14 year-olds. We discuss cars. If you disagree with someone, feel free to explain why. Olczyk stated that he is a friend of the seller. I have already posted two statements in this thread warning everyone to keep the discussion focused on the car in question and not on attacking each other. Do not post in this thread again unless you have some input on the history of the car being discussed. For the third time: EVERYONE, pretty please (with sugar on top) keep it on-topic.
Gil, look at the photos again. All the shots of the car when it was found in the 60s show the car as having LHD, not RHD. The car was convert (back?) to RHD during its restoration. The historical statements about the car (made by Rainey) state that the car is in its original configuration from 1938. Besides the fact that there are no photos or documentation proving that the car was in that state in 1938, the actual facts show that car's steering position has been switched at some point, disproving Rainey's claim that it's original. Cris
Now I am confused again...I must re-read all posts from the beginning...clearly I missed something. Sorry.
""Again, I am no expert and know nothing about this era of vehicle except that I love them. Many of the people on Ferrari Chat ARE experts!!! And, they don't need to see the vehicle, or have your certification and approval, to be experts."" Sometime, it s better to be blind that reading posts like this ... Many people here are fanatic and I respect this but you should known the difference between fanatic and experts !!! It look like that some fanatics have been upset by my comments about "self appointed internet experts"... Many people in a bar are experts in Formula One race but only a fews will known how to start the car.! The previous owner didn t hyde anythings and print the LHD photo, honnest people should respect this. Again and again, where is the race results ? photo from the "40 ?
If " The previous owner didn t hyde anythings and print the LHD photo" why is it that "honnest people should respect this." when these photo's prove that the previous owner Rainey was clearly not telling the truth when he stated in writing in his book: "The other thing about the car is that it is all original as it left where it was built in 1938/39." ? Once someone outright lies why should ""honnest people should respect this."???
There never was a Tobruk-Tripoli race in 1940, and as far I know also nothing was scheduled. The 1939 event (Litoranea Libica) was a substitution for the Mille Miglia which was prohibited by the authorities due to a fatal accident the year before. In 1940 - despite the war - there was again a MM, although it was not the "genuine thing".
Michael, thank you so much, that's fascinating. So we can add yet another suspect part of the story to the pile...another assumption on which the story of this car's history was concocted/built upon. This car was rejected by the trade and by the market back when it was originally auctioned a few years ago. It's not worth what a car like Uihlein's recently auctioned Monza replica is worth, since at least that car's parts had a known pedigree; this car's know history is all from 1967 onward. Experts (not "internet" experts, but real experts in the model and the marque) have never taken the car seriously, and their silence in this matter (people like Mr. Moore must be aware of at least one of the threads on this car) speaks volumes. I have been in contact with Mr. Moore before and if this thread continues I might certainly get in touch with him again, though I imagine he printed everything he knew about the car at the time (which he had listed as U47 in "The Legendary 2.3") I believe Colin Crabbe is still around and very active, as is Mr. Giddings, both who figure into this car's discovery some 40 years ago. They could shed light on what actual spares came with the car, versus those that found their way onto it during Mr. Rainey's rebuilding of it. But, of course, if people are getting surly, by all means, lock the thread. It would be one thing if we had unearthed some new and fascinating information proving the owner's claims, but that hasn't happened, meaning there are few redeeming reasons to let the thread live on in light of the air of mudslinging. So far, all we've confirmed is what many have already known, that the car shows no signs of EVER having been built by Enzo Ferrari, and that, in fact, the evidence, physical or otherwise, proves claims to that end to be false, not true. Cris
Sorry if I'm a stickler: Can you tell us where this information is coming from? Edit: Specifically, do you have any information about whether or not the 1940 Tobruk-Tripoli race at some point in time was planned and then cancelled, or if it was never scheduled at all? Please cite sources, if you can.
Incroyable, do you really believe that somebody will be please with such a post... First, show us where the car was auctioned ! So many great cars was not sold at auction and was sold for double a fews months later, do your home work before posting comic statements like this ...I have too many exemples to show you. If you known a little bit the market, you should known that some people don t like to buy in auction. I own one time BB LM Pionner and car was auctioned for 225 000 euro at Goodwood and didn t sell....In your opinion, surely bad car...until I sold it for 450 000 a fews months later !!! Concerning this great Alfa that you never see, you miss the point by a mile. When you say a fews years ago, it s surely a long time ago and what happen after that, the car was sold to a french collector who drove it every month ! If you want to be honnest, be clear, show us exactly WHEN was the auction PLEASE . I like this thread, very interesting between the constructives posts and the posts from the "always self appointed experts"
All true. In light of all of this I think the listing of the car for sale as "Alfa Romeo - 8C 2600 Scuderia Ferrari" on this web site: http://www.vdvgrant.be/sale.php?id=290 That Olczyk directed us to should be changed so as not to mislead potential buyers.
Yes, It's the same man for the same cars on internet sites different. examples: http://wspr-racing.com/automobilia/autom.htm -> http://wspr-racing.com/jaguar/xjr15/dayframe.html (the sheet indicates Porsche 911 Factory Turbo !) now see below, clik on link http://www.vdvgrant.be/sale.php?id=290 -> your choice Jaguar XJR15 R9R prototype 1990 Again with another car: http://www.vdvgrant.be/sale.php?id=290# -> third page: choice Ferrari barquette 196S replica and here http://wspr-racing.com/ferrari/206dino/dinoframe.html Yes, I noticed two differences: red Camshaft cover for one and black for the other; idem for blue or black Hose. but all the things are known; I am for the transparency and the true truth, I don't have anything against this guy. I observe and analyze without prejudice.
Now this is the funniest post on the thread!!...YOU want proof of what someone says???? But still you cannot prove your claims of this car. You are a car salesman who refuses to answer questions about a car you want sold!! How dare you ask for proof all the while being insulting and STILL you do not have the ability to prove your claims. You keep stating that people here are not "experts"...but what makes you enough of an "expert" to refute what they say? Because you sell cars? You thought you could bully your way into this site and convince people this car has provenance. As soon as you are legitimately questioned as to certain flaws in the story of the car, instead of clarifying the issues with answers, you insult people and tell them they don't know anything...but you have yet to prove you know ANYTHING about this or any car. You are an embarrasment to car salesmen, especially in the realm of high end, historical cars. I could go to my local Jeep dealer, find a salesman and quickly educate him on Ferrari's history, and he would be more eloquent than you and likely be able to sell the car quicker. I feel bad for whoever hired you to sell this car. You would be better to go away for a while, come back under another name, have some humility, and the true experts here would educate you on what this car really is!
This guy is absolutely great - he is asking a prove that something didn't happen....! Image Unavailable, Please Login
OK, lets take this in another direction. Lets assume the car is a "bitsa" and has no history prior to 1967...what is a fair price? Now, what is being asked for it with a speculative(at best) provenance? Is there a real attempt to inflate the price or just some "creative" speculation to increase interest in the car?
Some fool paid almost a million dollars for the Alfa 6c2300 lungo based car from the Ponder collection. I think this is nothing more than an attempt to find a similar fool, who will pay 3 times what the car is really worth.
Mr. Olczyk, I am well-aware of how the old car market works. Please, do not assume that I'm some rube who needs to enlightened in the ways of how vintage automobiles are bought and sold. Do not tell me what my opinion IS (re: your example of the BBLM,) I can come up with as many examples of cars selling for more or less than they were bid to, as you can. Back to the subject at hand... This car was advertised in a two-page spread for, I think, a Coys auction, a few years ago. I just looked at this ad one week ago at my family's summer house in an old issue of Classic and Sportscar. If someone else recalls that it was for another auction house, please correct me. Anyway, in the ad it made the same basic claims, that the car was believed to be a product of Enzo Ferrari's. We know it wasn't (as you state) "a long time ago" since by all accounts the car was owned by Rainey from 1969 on. You state below that the car "sold to a french collector who drove it every month !" Okay, fine. But BOTH the VDV/Grant website AND the http://alfa8c2600.blogspot.com/ website STATE that "Since its completion in the early 1970s, the car has been enthusiastically and well raced in hill climbs and sprints by the current owner." Which means that the seller, based on what YOU just wrote, is not being truthful. I will be back at my family's summer place in one week. I will get the magazine, scan the ad, and post it here. I can't find any record of the car even being BID on, but I know the car was scheduled to be auctioned. You have to understand, a least in the Vintage section of this website you're dealing with people who want things like this to be true but regardless are dedicated to the search for facts. If someone had information or photos that could verify ANY connection to Ferrari, people here, including me, would be happy to see them. It would be great to prove this car was a product of Enzo's...but at this point, no one, INCLUDING yourself, has provided anything that can do that. On the contrary, information that has been presented only disproves parts of the car's story. Cris
Your posts are quite funny, no offense. But your behaviour concerning this matter.. "I cannot believe that people can construct some inaccurate views based on no fact whatsoever and be quite comfortable to project them into the pack as being true. It is ridiculous."" TELL US AND SHOW US WHEN THE CAR WAS IN AUCTION... You say a fews years ago , how much ? You say that the car was rejected by the market and this comment just show that you don t understand anythings on the way things work ! Concerning this thread, I was asking for photos, and results but I laught more than really learning something about this fantastic Alfa. I m please to respond when I see somethings interested but in somes cases, I only see "wrong comments from ghost hydding behind a pseudo" Be real man, show your real name, adress, tel etc and let s talk honnestly. I harly believe that posting behind a pseudo is wrong and immature if you are really honnest Back to the car, when the car was in auction please. It s time to learn somethings
FIRST, Mr. Olczyk, you YOURSELF made mention of the car going to auction earlier in this post, and I quote: "Exemple of a good post, at the time of auction, the car didn t sell because the reserve was not meet." So why are you doubting/questioning when the car was in an auction? Why? Second, I tracked down a copy of Motor Sport from the same time as the issue of Classic and Sports Car I mentioned earlier, and there was an ad for the auction. See below. Third, I have searched high and low for results of this car at that auction with none to be found, but as YOU have already stated, and both myself and one or two others have commented on, the car did not sell, so why don't you enlighten us about what the car actually sold for? Fourth, my name is Cris, I hide behind no pseudonym...don't assume I am some person trying to undermine you or your reputation. Don't assume that I am some person using multiple usernames. You asked for information, photos, and results. People have offered what they could to that end, including both Stu and I trying to search for information on the phantom 1940 Tobruk/Tripoli race that probably never happened. I have offered what I know and what I've read about ACTUAL research into this car's known and probable history. So tell me again, what is so bad about, and again I quote YOU: my "behaviour concerning this matter"? Cris Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I've learned a few things recently with respect to brokers. Its seems the reputable ones go about their business in a quiet, efficient, and respectable manner....they allow their reputation and meticulous customer service to do the talking. Then there are the confrontational, argumentative, and downright insulting types that are willing to engage in verbal sparring at the drop of a hat. I know which type I prefer to deal with.
Olzyk "Paul Grant is very happy for the informations that he found out here" The information on this thread has shown that Rainey, while a remarkable man was obviously not telling the truth about what this car was and what it was not and that it was not built by Enzo Ferrari nor was SF among other things. If your statement about Paul Grant is true, I must admit that I for one have trouble understanding why he would be happy that the information in this thread proves that Rainey was not telling the truth about this car, but either way, when will he be changing the listing on his web site to reflect the information about this car that has come out on this thread and has not been refuted by you or anyone? The car is STILL listed on his web site as: Alfa Romeo - "8C 2600 Scuderia Ferrari 1938 " In light of the information in this thread do you feel that this listing is correct?
