Sir, without offense, Grant is happy for many reasons but your opinion about Rainey actions are not his opinion. The real truth is that nobody known for sure as nobody was there in 1938 or even 1967 when he found the car but can you accept this evidence ? He is going to give gift to 2 members from this thread and they already receive a PM. Thank You for your precious time and don t forget to send your adress to me to receive the gift.
Mr. Olczyk, As many have mentioned, the car is a wonderful car with an even more-wonderful drivetrain. I would advise you/Mr. Grant to contact the marque experts (Simon Moore, Paul Grist, David George in Pennsylvania, Fred Simeone, Peter Giddings, Neil Twyman, Colin Crabbe, etc.) as if ANYONE has missing pieces to the story that could either prove or disprove what this car is, they would know. The fact is that for decades now Alfa 8c 2300/2600 cars have been among the most desirable cars on the planet. Unless a car comes up for auction, you have to go to great lengths to get someone to sell one to you, and as-mentioned, Uihlein's Monza (a recreation built around a real drivetrain from 2211083) just went for $907,500 USD less than a month ago. This car needs to be marketed properly and it needs the holes in its story filled in. If someone (Mr. Rainey's daughter, maybe?) could find all the documents he stated Fusi gave him (providing that the documents actually do show THE actual car and aren't simply blueprints of 2300 and 2600 cars in general) you would have part of the story. The other part comes from establishing what actual parts that are on the car today were on (or with) the car when found in 1967, VERSUS what parts Rainey found later (real parts) and put on the car as he rebuilt it. No gift is neccesary. My words are built upon research others have done previously. Cris
To a potential global market, where provenance is even more important than condition - it's very surprising to find a broker or a dealer of a supposedly extremely significant car, who hasn't established a car's complete history beyond reasonable doubt, prior to presentation for sale - especially bearing in mind the number of 0's that will be on the sale price.
Don t worry for VDV, provenance is very well known and VDV known what is doing. At this stage, VDV don t claims that he known everythings and he is not lucky enough to be like the internet experts who known everythings but may be with hard work, he will be able in 50 years to explain a car from his bedroom.....lol ( sorry it was too funny )
Mr Olczyk - a collective contribution by knowledgeable, discerning enthusiasts worldwide has provided significant information on this car free of charge and in a timely manner - that was after all why u posted the thread in the first place? The same people who you now malign?
To one and all posting in this tread: FerrariChat is a valuable resource for information, including historical information, about the cars, their history and provenance. As such, threats of suit are totally inappropriate and would chill vigorous and genuine debate. We would urge that anyone posting here about a car recognize that they submit it to public scrutiny. Users threatening suit are subject to ban. If there is a genuine legal issue about a car, we trust that it would get sorted in the courts, not here. Thanks for your cooperation. Dave M.
Without arguing anything positive or negative regarding these cars, the people that visit FerrariChat I would have thought might in some situations will be rather wealthy, maybe even millionaires. So if you are a car dealer/ broker wouldnt you be VERY careful to be nice to them ??. I mean one day you might want to sell them something, hopefully. And wouldnt you get the books, interview the usual suspects, get the info. I think public forums for all the interesting facts/ data are not specific experts, we are just fans in one way or another. Simon Moore or any one of a dozen alfa experts will after a very short look, maybe even just looking at the photo's, say yes or no. A lot of Simon's data came after trawling records and talking to owners, he will have stuff on this car and will have known Mr. Rainey. Someone should ask him ?? Timmmmmy
Simon Moore has already commented on this car. He has found absolutely nothing to indicate that this car has any connection to Scuderia Ferrari.
I must say the evidence and analysis presented in this thread has convinced me beyond the shadow of any doubt that he is correct. Best
Yes, considering Simon Moore is the acknowledged expert on these cars, it would be unwise and very hard work to try and prove he was wrong. Again nice and interesting special built on a 6c Alfa Romeo. Pete
I've been reading this with interest and have held off until now to add my bit. Around 1994 I bought a house in Worcestershire, UK. My next door neighbour turned out to be Michael Blinkhorn, secretary of the Bugatti Owners Club. When he found out I was a Ferrari dealer we became friends and he introduced me to Murray Rainey. I recall going to Murray's house and seeing the Alfa and all his tooling and workshop. He was a commendably proficient home engineer. I would call Murray mischevious. He good naturedly taunted me about nobody in the Ferrari community giving him the respect for being the owner of the "first ever Ferrari". Those were his words. We had an interesting conversation about the car, or bits, coming back from Africa, I don't recall details but he was certainly very proud of the work he had to do, and the components he had to create, in order to end up with a functioning motor car. I took a lot of this with a pinch of salt. ( I could detect the glint in his eye, as if he were testing me) duly purchased a copy of his book and forgot about it until now. Its many years since I read the book, and I must say that the secret I was hoping to find remained a mystery. Even if it were some old Alfa retrieved from Africa (and I believe that to be true) it doesn't automatically link to Enzo. All we can be certain of for now is that if Murray was having fun with the snotty nosed elements of the Ferrari fraternity, that's a secret taken to the grave, God rest his soul. To give an element of respect to Mr Olczyk, hasn't he openly said the car is available for forensic inspection by any expert ? We can accept his commercial motive is to make a silk purse out of a pigs ear, but why crucify the guy if he seems to be trying to do that on a globally open forum? I don't get it.
I'm with you Andrew. This is a popcorn thread and one that Olcyzk, (by the way if we say that backwards does Superman regain his powers?) subjected himself too. There are lots of other controversial dealers of these sorts of things around and very few of them show up for spotlighting in any public forum. I think the fact that he takes a lick and keeps on ticking must really rankle those for whom he seems to be an obvious peddler of potions. But again, anyone buying a car from him can find quite a lot of controversy in his wake on the net, there are quite a few of similar reputations that are under the covers until you make the mistake of dealing with them. Furthermore, many of us here have learned a good deal from having this sort of thing available to read about. Cheers. Yale
Very interesting post. I think if you read the entire thread carefully you will see why some have objected to Olczyk's manner but that is not the issue. The issue is what the car is or isn't and in the end the chassis speaks for itself and the photo of the chassis in the 60 ies being left hand drive, a photo that Olczyk has verified as coming from Mr Rainey proves that it was Mr. Rainey who modified it to Right hand Drive not Enzo Ferrari. Why Olczyk had to state that my opinion of what that photo proved was not "honnest" remains beyond me but that is a different issue. Best
It appears that any further debate will simply lead to more of this "it is, it isn't" stuff. So, in order to preserve peace among my many vintage friends, we're shutting this one down. Please, let this one be for a while. I believe all have had their say, and we're all going to sleep better if we just move along. Dave
