1957/58 250TR & 1958 Dino 246F1 Information

Fellow enthusiasts, I am a scratch model maker in need of photographs, or drawings for two cars that I am researching prior to generating drawings for construction of models of the two cars.

The first car is one that has had so many photographs taken it makes one's head spin. The 1957/58 series 250 Testa Rossa, both customer car, and works car. However, I cannot find a single photograph or drawing of the chassis, or car without bodywork, that shows enough detail for my needs. I have a copy of Joel Finn's book on the TR, but as usual the only photograph is from the front, which does not help me with the rear suspension fittings. Ideally I would love to access a full set of photographs showing both the customer car with the solid rear axle, and the small number of works cars with De Dion suspension.

The second car is what most will know as the Hawthorn car from 1958, the large tube chassis Dino 246 F1 car. The problem is that every cutaway drawing I have found shows small tube chassis, I suspect that after the details were released in early 1958 of the new chassis along with a good drawing of the small tube chassis, all the cutaway artists used that information. Indeed all the models I have ever seen are also based on the small tube chassis, and what is worse some that are described as a particular car which should have a large tube chassis, turn out to have a small tube chassis with an altered cutaway cockpit to look like a large tube car. Sorry to be such a nit picker, but I'm getting a bit desperate. I've got the drawings well under way for the Collins International car because I have enough information for a small tube chassis, but I just don't have enough information for the Hawthorn car.

Does anyone out there have such photographs, or drawings?.........Please.

You could make an old scratch builder very happy.

Thanks,

John.

 

Thank you so much for that suggestion. I suppose I should have thought of that myself....I'm getting old.

 

Thank you Paul for that image. No I have never come across that one, what is its origin. It has to be an image of a 58, or 59 large tube chassis, because of the orientation of the gear lever. I would be very interested to know where the artist got his information from. As a point of interest I have posted the only clear photograph I have ever come across of a large tube chassis, although there was a rolling large tube chassis photograph published in the 28th of March 1958 Autocar, along with an article regarding the new season's Dino 246 improved chassis, the small tube one. Sad to say I only have a very poor photocopy of this image, and unlike a decent scan the detail is lost in the usual way of a photocopier. I haven't been able to obtain a copy of the 28th March Autocar but I will keep looking. Along with the photograph mentioned above, I have also included one of c/n 003 as it was raced in 1959. It does of course have the modifications of that year, the wishbone mounts at the rear, and the attendant supports for the inverted transaxle, but you can clearly see the same reducing diameter lower main tubes.

Once again thanks for the image that you posted.
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Thank you for all the new information. Firstly I must amend my suggestion that the photograph of Dino c/n 003 was as raced in 1959, that should be 1960. Doh!

I'm not sure how much of the pre V-12 Testa Rossas carried through to the 57/58 family apart from c/n 0704 being based on a modified 500 TRC chassis, prototype 250 TR c/n 0666 seemingly built on a 290 MM chassis. There was of course the 'evil' 3 Litre Dino which seems to share so much with the 57/58 TR's. I have attached a photograph of the 3 litre Dino chassis, seen from a front view as usual, and I've also attached two other images, one is a very quick render of the 250 TR 59/60 chassis base, which shows the marked difference of the approach that the designers had taken for the rear end. I work in solid full size AutoCAD drawings, and I removed all the other superstructure for clarity.Finally, the last photograph is of a small tube Dino chassis in one eighth, that I knocked up for the sizing of the body envelope, hence no mounts for the radius rods.
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Good Evening Steve.
Thanks for the interest.
That particular chassis is just thin wall brass tube, the joints are soft soldered. I made it that way because it was a mock up. When I make any model which has a tubular chassis I normally set up a jig on a ten mm dural base, so that the main tubes can be cut, filed and if needed dowelled to keep them in place. Then I use a small blow torch to silver solder the joints. A bucket of concentrated citric acid dip will clean the whole thing up during different bits of silver soldering. I also use different melting temperature silver solder. The tiny tubes are often fitted using different temperature soft solder. The whole secret is not to disturb the last ones soldered. I posted some photographs of my work, for general interest, and there were a couple showing a 1959, and a 1959/60 250 TR chassis.

 

Thanks for the Autocar image. The page numbers are interesting, was this a reprint in a book?
The poor copies that I have of the original article show the cutaway across pages 458/9, the starting point of the 'New season's racing cars' article. This cutaway is by Marsden, and shows the small tube chassis.Page 460 shows the new small tube frame for 1958 without any attachments and there is also at the top of the page a drawing of the rear suspension which shows the abandoned slide in the diff casing, and the new structure on the underside of the De Dion tube, this looks to be a small tube chassis.The drawing of the bare chassis is obviously the chassis used for the full cutaway on the previous page. Page 461 is the one that I find interesting, because it has a nice unclothed Dino photograph in the upper right hand corner, this is entitled 'Last year's chassis', and because the pages that I have are photocopies, the quality of this photograph is very poor, and it's as usual a front view. The article concludes on page 462, with a nice photograph of the transaxle taken from above with the seat absent. It is once again a small tube chassis fitting. I wonder if this information was taken from c/n 0002. As I have said before never have I come across a cutaway of the big tube chassis, all the other cutaways I suspect should give homage to this article in the Autocar, except for the Jim Allington cutaway. He had access to the Collins car whilst it was being prepared for the BRDC international race at Silverstone in early May, although he would almost certainly seen the Marsden cutaway. Again as I have said earlier, I am sure that some of the big tube chassis had a life which ran from 1958, through to 1960, with various bits excised, and new bits tacked on, so I have been able to obtain certain key measurements for the basic ladder structure. For what its worth, I have enclosed all the cutaways that I have come across to date, and I am sure that there are many more lurking. Take a look at them, and you will notice some strange things in one of them. A tank which could be fitted alongside the driver on his left side has some how slipped across to the right hand side and this means that the gear lever linkage would run through the tank, oh and whilst the tank crept across the cockpit it must have removed the u/j just behind the steering wheel. It's all very strange. Very confusing to an ancient Gnome like me. So if anyone out there has even a poor illustration or photograph giving any clues regarding the chassis aft the radius rod uprights I would be most grateful.

Getting back to the 1957/8 Testa Rossa, this again is an area where I have never seen the structure which supports the vertical movement of the De Dion tube at its centre. I wonder how much it had in common with the 246, and the 1959 TR, although both of these had a dedicated slide built into a diff casing. Unused in the case of the Dino 1958 onwards. Ferrari was quite a slave to whatever worked and gave no problems, and many items are so nearly alike as to seem the same.
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Thanks for your input Boudewijn. The top cutaway is the Fantuzzi bodied 1960 car with wishbone rear suspension. This drawing shows the large tube ladder frame, which is I believe is idendical to 1958 cars. The 1957 1.5 litre car c/n 0011 is quite interesting because it started life with the steering box on the left hand side and the column runs down the left of the engine. 0011 has it would seem, a continuous history running from 1957, through to 1960, when it was given a two seater body. I have heard that 0011 rose up from the scrap heap during the early 1980's, received a new chassis, but I wonder how much of the car we see today was original, because it seems to have more than a touch of the rear body shape given to the two re-creations from Greypaul. I have included a few photographs of 0011 during 1957, sorry about the poor quality.
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