1967 L88 Corvette> | Page 2 | FerrariChat

1967 L88 Corvette>

Discussion in 'American Muscle' started by of2worlds, Sep 19, 2013.

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  1. Face76

    Face76 F1 World Champ
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    I owned a '65 365 4 speed coupe for awhile. That was my first solid lifter vette and I moved onto the 435 cars soon after. The 365 hp car handled much better than the big block cars and it didn't have a 3x2 carb set up either. My car was also a radio delete car with a 410 rear which was kinda of a pain around town.
     
  2. of2worlds

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    It was the yellow 1969 ZL-1 Corvette. Ordered originally by the engineer at the Tonawanda New York factory were GM built the big block motors. Was later sold as a demo vehicle through a Chevolet dealer but was a tough sell due to the 3k option cost of the motor. To make a long story short; rich guy buys Corvette and breaks the motor racing it. The broken motor disappears from the shop but is later re-united with the Corvette quietly for financial considerations...
    CH
     
  3. Autonutz67

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    Oct 4, 2013
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    Not quite factual but very close –The red/red 1967 L88 has received the NCRS Duntov Mark of Excellence award in NCRS the only L88 of record to have that award, there is another L88 which also has the Duntov award but it was judged before horsepower and color combinations were recorded, so it does not appear when you search for L88 Duntov recipients. No such thing as a NCRS judging "silver" certified, in addition the red/red car has been inducted into the Bloomington Gold Hall of Fame and appeared in the Bloomington Gold special collection multiple times.

    My suspicion is it is more like two or three have the original born with motor and none of them are the three cars which have sold for 2.6M to 3.44M within the last eighteen months.

    Unlike the other three L88's at 2.6M plus, the red/red L88 does not have a previous owner inspired matching number/restoration motor - it has a early 1967 GM cast, GM machined, engine with virgin broach marks and the famed IT L88 engine machine code that are GM applied, it’s not a made up matching number motor it’s a real deal early 1967 IT coded L88 motor.

    An earlier post mentioned window sticker, the red/red car has the original, legible, GM/NCRS validated order copy (tank sheet) if a window sticker exists it is either reproduction or has not been validated.
     
  4. not a red "1"

    not a red "1" Karting
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    It is not surprising with restamped blocks, counterfeit tank stickers & window stickers & even NCRS judges being constantly fooled, that trying to buy an authentic highly coveted big block C2 Corvette is quite akin to walking through a mind field on a moonless night blindfolded...Alex
     
  5. Autonutz67

    Autonutz67 Rookie

    Oct 4, 2013
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    The difference is that the Corvette world like it or not is basically 12 years ahead of most of the other Marques, in being able to determine re-stamps, trim/cowl tags and bad paper. Some marques just figured out they have cowl tags. A perfect example is the Corvette world preservation award first appeared in 1992, the Ferrari preservation award first appeared? My gut says 2003 or 2004 I could be off three or four yeas either direction.
     
  6. of2worlds

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    #31 of2worlds, Oct 7, 2013
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    Back to red/red> the third owner of the 1967 L88 Corvette was Max Reimer. He was the person who bought the Corvette not knowing what he had. There were a few clues in that this Corvette had the radio/heater delete package, perfect for cold mornings in Dearborn! Two things the car did have were J56 brakes and the M22 transmission. Suspicions were confirmed when the legible tank sticker revealed this Corvette was delivered new with the L88 motor option. This was further confirmed when the owner obtained the original window sticker for the Corvette. Mr Reimer owned the Corvette for about a decade until he sold it to a Mr Purvis. It was Mr Purvis who collected the missing parts including a motor over six years, for the restoration. At this point Mr Norvell purchased the 1967 Corvette and the necessary restoration parts. He then commissioned the Nabers brothers to restore the Corvette for Bloomington Gold judging. Mr Norvell entered the restored red/red Corvette for judging at Springfield Ill in 1994. The coupe was indeed "Silver" certified at that event. Within the year the Corvette was sold again. Mr Norvell also had another interesting Corvette around this time. It was a 5,000 original mile 1963 SW coupe. It to was red/red and featured another solid lifter motor; the 340 HP version. For Corvette owners 'red/red' is one of the most sought after color combinations. Finding documented C2 Corvettes in this color combination is quite rare.
    CH
     
  7. Autonutz67

    Autonutz67 Rookie

    Oct 4, 2013
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    Ah! That makes since Bloomington Gold not NCRS issued the silver certification. Bloomington had a practice in 1994 of what they called boxing a car that kept it from attaining certain levels of awards. This car had that happen because it was presented as it now sets with an original GM IT coded L88 engine the owner refused to molest the engine pad by stamping a VIN in the original pad. If a window sticker existed then (do you by chance have a copy of it you could post or email me?) it is MIA today, which I find strange, the original tank sheet is still present. The window sticker present with the car today is a reproduction and so labeled. But, the original tank sheet being tied to the VIN by the GM/NCRS document validation service is as good a piece of documentation as you could ask for. It will be interesting the only red/red 1967 L88 built with great owner history that is well known and the IT coded 1967 L88 engine from the same time frame as the production of the car. Another Ferrari owner has called this 1967 the “Crown Jewel” of Corvette production.
     
  8. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    I have not personally seen the window sticker from the 1967 red/red L88 Corvette. However some sellers have a habit of hanging on to small items and perhaps paperwork to from cars they no longer own. Paperwork does get lost over the years. The Riverside Gold 1969 L88 Corvette being an example of this missing paperwork problem.
    Some later buyers of Corvettes have been able to obtain documents and pictures of the Corvette when new after they trace the ownership history chain back to the original owner.
    The paperwork for the Goodwood Green 1967 FSO Corvette that was specially built for Bob Wingate would make for interesting reading here>

    Bob Wingate's FSO Corvettes - Vette Magazine

    One reason the L88 motor was rated officially as only 430 HP was to dissuade buyers who 'checked all the boxes' when ordering a new Corvette. For them it appeared the higher rated 435 HP L71 motor was the one to get. The L89 aluminum head version of the 435 HP motor only had 16 sales in 1967.
    A blue 1966 427 Corvette coupe exists because the original buyer ordered every available option including the big tank so he would have a 'loaded' Corvette.
    CH
     
  9. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    One Corvette owner had a pair of 1967 Corvettes for sale with the two motors mentioned above. Both were Lynndale Blue roadsters and the L88 Corvette had the black interior and the L89 had the white interior as I recall. Offered only as a pair they were for sale for a long time...
    CH
     
  10. REMIX

    REMIX Two Time F1 World Champ

    Wayne Walker of ZIP Products

    "ZL-1 Spotlight"

    Easily worth over $1m.
     
  11. Phil~

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    What a fantastic car. And from what I recall, he only payed around $300,000 for it. I wonder what happened to it's twin. Anyone have any info on that car?
     
  12. Meister

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    How do you guys feel about that ZL1 that is in the collection of the guy down in Punta Gorda FLA?

    I saw it 5 or so years ago and thought it was supposedly a ZL1 off the top of my head. There was some sort of period magazine on the car about being an undocumented 3rd factory car. Title was like "1 of 2 or 1 of 3, you decide" kinda thing.
     
  13. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    There is an undocumented white 1969 Corvette that the owner claims to be a ZL1 model from the factory. However it lacks convincing documentation.
    A different 1969 Corvette would seem to be the 'twin' based on it's documentation...>

    In the past a car was seldom misrepresented as something it was not. Time and increased monetary values along with rarity have conspired to create an artificial market place where every car is suspiciously checked to see if it is 'real' or a re-manufactured fake featuring part and pieces it never left the factory with.
    Pontiac Historical Service has done much to eliminate the uncertainty about what options a Pontiac was originally manufactured with. There is no such service unfortunately for American delivery Chevrolet automobiles. For Corvette in particular with it's 'tank sticker' or in some cases the original window sticker, there is little else to prove or disprove the authenticity of a particular Corvette. A review of the manufacturing dates on parts like the window glass, transmission and differential can give some insight into the history of a particular Corvette along with it's serial number as an indication of the month of manufacture. Some documents like the original bill of sale seldom survive as old Corvettes pass though a series of owners in the life of the car.
    That is just part of what makes 1969 Corvette serial number 10209 so unique. It is an original 1969 Corvette built at the factory in St. Louis with an all aluminum 427 ZL1 motor. This 1969 Corvette was ordered from West Penn Garage in PA. The buyer found out about the availability of this special 427 RPO ZL1 option through his friendship with Don Yenko. Don was also one of the people who pushed Chevrolet to offer a race motor for the Corvette to go racing with. When Chevrolet finally introduced it; the motor became known as RPO L88. Interestingly a 1968 L88 Corvette was taken as a 'trade-in' when the customer ordered his ZL1 Corvette. At first there was a problem with the order; instead of an M22 transmission the customer wanted an M40 Turbo-Hydramatic automatic transmission for his Corvette. After some delays General Motors finally agreed to build this special aluminum engine Corvette with an automatic transmission. It was completed in December 1968. Because the automatic transmission was ordered the factory 3.36 rear gears were replaced with a set of 4.11 gears by the dealership. The color combination chosen was Monaco Orange with a black interior and a black vinyl covered hardtop for this Corvette convertible. The original tank sticker documents these options and along with a copy of the original West Penn Garage invoice confirms this to be a real 1969 ZL1 Corvette that has it's 'born with motor' and built by the factory in December 1968.
    CH
     
  14. of2worlds

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    #39 of2worlds, Oct 15, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2013
    It would be interesting to know the serial number for that LeMans Blue 1969 Corvette in Punta Gorda FL. With the ZL1 motor it was perhaps used by Chevrolet Engineering for test purposes.

    Earlier Chevrolet Engineering installed a ZL1 motor in a stripped out 1968 Corvette roadster. That Polar White Corvette also featured the optional wide fender flares. Those fender flares were one option not installed with the production ZL1 motor however, since they were too wide for the factory assembly line build process.

    Chevrolet Engineering also built up a Monaco Orange 1969 Corvette coupe and installed a ZL1 motor along with an M40 automatic transmission. This Corvette was given to journalists to drive. It was felt to be a better choice than a manual shift car at the drag strip they built on 'Black Lake' for testing. 180 degree headers and slicks provided an entertaining and accessible experience for one and all lucky enough to participate in this 1969 Corvette 'ten second' trip!
    CH
     
  15. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    D & A Corvette Inc., Gillespie Ill ( Dick Ferrando ) started rebuilding Corvettes in the early 60's. His work is famous....
    Thanks for the link!
    CH
     
  16. Face76

    Face76 F1 World Champ
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    #42 Face76, Oct 16, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013
    The fakery around the corvette trade hit its stride in 1988 as Bloomington held their L88 reunion collection. I personally saw tank stickers trading for big money - no car attached. The worst was a frame pulled from a wrecking yard (Marlboro Maroon vert) with the tank (and tank sticker still attached) that sold for $75k. How many 351 blocks (the 67 435 block) did fakers collect and re-sale?

    I personally owned a 1 owner 71 War Bonnet Yellow LS6 coupe with all options and every piece of documentation available. 12,000 miles. Showed up to pick the car up and Kaboom - a CE block. I already knew about the 73 front end conversion with an air brushed girl on the hood (World of Wheels car) but the CE block hurt the deal. I paid $11,500 and later traded it for 63 fuelie vert. The car ended up in Longmont CO with a bunch of other vettes.

    I never would have faked that block. Too much documentation on a very rare car. Why weaken the car's history? To my knowledge, the car has never been restored. I later sold the same guy a 68 321 435 block that came out of a speed boat in the Ozarks that belonged to another one of his cars. He paid dearly for that one.
     
  17. Meister

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    Not sure I follow, a CE block is a warranty replacement block not speciffically a fake/restamp
     
  18. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    It happens occasionally when car and 'born with motor' are reunited. Usually though there is a reason why the original motor was pulled out. Typically it is a mechanical failure but occasionally someone want to put all that horsepower into something else.

    Even the tank sticker doesn't always tell the truth. One 1969 L88 Corvette that was known from day one as such had the tank sticker for a different Corvette installed by the factory. Someone who bought a 390HP Corvette and looked at the tank sticker would think they found an L88 pot of gold. Trouble was their Corvette also had the wrong tank sticker and it never was an L88.
    Many collectors have become much more conscious of the dates on various parts and the time frame of manufacture when they were used. When you try and recreate something it has to line up date wise. There is however a window of use for these dates like 1967 model year 435HP cylinder heads. I could use a set of 'K' [for November month of manufacture in 1966] 435HP cylinder heads. Same with a November 1966 435HP tri-power intake manifold. The date for that part is on the underside of the manifold though. Strangely there are more 'October' 1966 manufactured cylinder heads around than November dated.
    As I have noted before the CE block issue doesn't really detract from the value when it comes to something rare. An LS6 is rare. Very rare if it was built with the M40 automatic transmission. Warranty blocks were just a part of doing business back then as many of these special performance Corvettes had a very hard life...
    CH
     
  19. of2worlds

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    #45 of2worlds, Oct 16, 2013
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    Getting back to the C2 RPO L88 it was Zora Duntov who was always trying to get the most performance out a Corvette. Using lightweight components was part of that plan even going back to the 1957 Corvette SS program with 5 cars as a build target. However things did not work out well on that program.
    However in 1960 aluminum cylinder heads were tried out on a production small block motor. Unfortunately they did not go into assembly line production back then due to problems with the heads cracking and warping. The composition of the aluminum used to cast the heads was seen as a problem in that case.
    The reduced weight idea was still there when the Chevrolet big block motor first appeared for racing. The small block with it's bore spacing had a size limit on total displacement. The big block as the name implies allowed for a larger displacement; from 327 cubic inches the new motor could be built to 427 cubic inches. Initially however the Corvette big block motor was offered as only a 396 cubic inch displacement version. This was due to a corporate ban on putting motors larger than 400 cubic inches in small and intermediate size model products at that time. (Also the reason why Pontiac offered the GTO with only a 389 cubic inch motor and not the bigger 421 motor that the Pontiac Grand Prix for example received) For 1965 the Chevrolet 396 big block motor became a regular production Corvette option part way through that year. This was the top performance motor with hi flow steel cylinder heads and a solid lifter camshaft. Even the block was stronger with 4 bolts on the main caps instead of two and a large capacity oil pan. To compensate for the extra weight of the bigger motor it was decided to offer aluminum cylinder heads. These new aluminum heads were said to be 70 pounds lighter than the steel version heads. As with many new parts they were first tried out on race cars. Before the parts even went to race cars however Zora decided in 1966 to build a prototype Corvette equipped with the new aluminum cylinder head big block race motor. This new version would be built as a 427 cubic inch motor Corvette.
    CH
     
  20. Face76

    Face76 F1 World Champ
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    Having a low mile LS6 car with all of its documents with the original block would have been something. The original owner still had the key punch outs saved. The engine compartment still had the original stickers and crayon markings on the various components.

    As to piecing a numbers and date matching motor, it isn't that hard if you are willing to spend the time and money. I just sold a 321 435 block with date matched heads, water pump, 3x2 intake, alternator and original tripower air cleaner to someone in San Antonio. I had this setup for a 68 435 corvette bronze vert that I owned in the late 80's. I barely broke even when I sold it. The current owner has it for sale at twice the price with no takers.

    I just found some polaroids of these cars. I will try to scan and post in another thread.
     
  21. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    The 1968 435 Corvette is an interesting vehicle that can still be purchased for half the price of a similar 1967 435 Corvette. Post up those pictures!!!

    General Motors of Canada occasionally ordered display vehicles. One of the more unique 1968 Corvettes they ordered was a red on red 435 coupe. What made this Corvette more valuable was the L89 aluminum cylinder head option it came with. However no L89 equipped 427 435 1967 Corvettes were among the 102 cars delivered to Canada for that model year. The Canadian delivery Corvettes can be documented with the shipping records. From the known serial number such information as shipping date, factory installed options and the selling dealer number are all listed. Even the key codes are listed. Though the actual listing is rather cryptic showing just letters and numbers. For example it doesn't say 'tinted glass' or automatic transmission for listed options. The records simply list AO1 and M40 so you have to know the option codes.
    The American delivery Chevrolet Corvette records are also said to exist. However legal advice at some point in the past scuttled any chance of those records being accessed by the public. No one wanted to be responsible for opening that can of worms...
    CH
     
  22. of2worlds

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    Zora Duntov was always thinking of new ways to provide more power for the Corvette. Having built the Corvette SS racer that weighed less than 2,000 pounds he knew what a penalty the production Corvette carried with it's extra weight. To help Corvette customers build a better Corvette race car he built one himself to try out some new ideas for regular production options.
    In 1966 a prototype 1965 Corvette was chosen to be the test car for some heavy duty performance options. The 1965 Corvette prototype was chosen since it would eventually be destroyed anyway. GM did not want to sell any 'non production' automobiles to the public. This Corvette was to be build in the way that a customer would build a Corvette race car. First the body was taken off the chassis and the drivetrain removed. Then the new parts were installed. Starting at the front was a 427 cubic inch 'big block' motor soon to become a regular production option the following spring with code RPO L88. The motor featured aluminum cylinder heads utilizing high compression pistons and a high lift camshaft; it was however not suitable for street use. Another improvement was a single large carburetor that flowed almost as much air as the 3 x 2 carburetor setup the 1967 RPO L71 427 435hp Corvette would offer. Another race feature was the cold air induction '427' hood design. This was backed up with a RPO M22 heavy duty four speed transmission commonly known as the 'rock crusher'. Because there was to be high speed testing of the Corvette a 3.08:1 rear end gear ratio was installed. On top of that was a RPO N03 36 gallon gasoline tank. For better handling, Z06 suspension parts where built up but also with option RPO J56 heavy duty disc brakes. In place of the skinny stock tires were larger racing tires mounted on wide American Racing 'mag' wheels. Just like on a race car all possible weight like a radio, heater, door panel trim and carpet were all removed. The mufflers were replaced with headers and 4 inch diameter rocker panel exhaust pipes which ended in front of the rear tires. In place of the old 1965 body a new style 1966 coupe body was mounted on the prototype 1965 chassis. To protect the driver a roll bar was installed in the Corvette. The body had been painted white and a new for 1967 Corvette 'stinger' 427 hood scoop was utilized. This hood featured the new cold air induction system the L88 motor would utilize for the production models. Though for this test car the contrasting color 'stinger' stripe was not painted on the Corvette's hood. While a 1966 front grill was mounted the front and rear bumpers were left off to save some weight. With all that horsepower available the L88 still delivered 10 mpg in spirited highway driving. Fourty seven years ago this month in October 1966 the L88 equipped prototype began it's brief life as a Corvette test vehicle. As a non production vehicle this historic Corvette had to eventually be destroyed.
    The L88 option package was perhaps the most ambitious performance program that Zora Duntov was ever able to offer Corvette customers. It lasted as a regular production option for just three brief years during the late 1960's.
    CH
     
  23. DIGMAN52

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    #49 DIGMAN52, Oct 21, 2013
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    I owned a 1971 LS6 Corvette as well as a 1970 LS6 Chevelle in the 90's. The Corvette was a Dallas 1 owner car, that had sat outside for 10 years. The original owner was still alive, and he had reams of original paperwork, and every receipt for work done on the car. The big issue was that he had thrown a rod on it in 1978, as he was towing his jet boat home from Lake Dallas. He had vette fenders added to his boat trailer to match his Ontario Orange beast.

    Bought it for $25k, hoped to put in $15k but ended up spending $25k on the frame off in 1992. It was in the June '92 Corvette Fever Magazine, a Musclecard Collection, and won trophies showing and racing. Always told myself to never take on a big project, but I just liked the story on this car. Took it back to the original owner after the restoration, and he got a big tear in his eye. Then we went out for a spin, and it turned into a grin.

    Just another one of those I should have hung on to, along with that Chevelle. It went away in '94 for $27,500.

    Those sales just allowed me to move up to the latest fun ride, so no remorse here.
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  24. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    Terrific post, many thanks!
     

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