Thank you very much, Simon. You always learn something. Ok the GTS has two more tubes in the door sills AND those two angled tubes in the B-pillar, correct? It cannot be more, as the weight difference is about 12 kg, so there cannot be anything else, correct? I didn't know they started from a GTS for the Gruppo 4 rally car: you always learn something about those cars. Thanks for sharing. ciao Image Unavailable, Please Login
It looks like the whole rear tube section in the bulkhead is different and much larger section, plus the 2 struts that run down into the sill, but there maybe a difference in Euro to Federal for side impact protection related to extra structure round the lock/fuel tank area. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Well, if you happened to spent some time on this forum, there is a well know case of a german 328 GTS that was converted to a "sort of" GTB race car years ago, for which all the picturescdocumented the GTS chassis in every detail, so this has been well covered already years ago. Spend as much time as you want to prove your phoney theories right, or wrong, or whatever: like I said above, I have better things to do than hurting insects. Rgds
And those German gts picture you speak of told you “ one additional tube in each door sill... period” ? I suspect you have indeed painted yourself in the corner. Apparently without being able to stand behind those entrenched words you are now bailing on the topic at hand without further examination as expected. Plenty of pics (or are they being called phoney theories?) posted already outlining differences and not by me. I’m sure they weren’t intended to factshame anyone. I myself would like to learn and know more in detail how extensive the reinforcements were. Regards
Well: let's say it in other words: I don't care the sligthtest about your semantic games and distortions. You are absolutely free to spent as many hours as you want trying to prove that the GTS chassis is another, different, chassis from the GTB; just as you spent I don't know how many messages trying to proves us that the different V8s versions were built on a different block each, and not on the same. I don't care the slightest about discussions based on "I am right" "No I am right" etc...and I don't care the slightest about who has painted himself in which corner either. So: I state it here and again: GTS and GTB chassis are one, only, same chassis, despite one tube here and there. You can built a GTB body on a GTS chassis, and you can built a GTS body on a GTB chassis: it has already been done. You can even build a 308 GTB on a 308GT4 chassis, as the first Michelotto 308 GTB was actually built on a shortened GT4 chassis (which explains that the car has an even chassis number). This proves that there is one single type of chassis for the whole family, adapted to each variant in minute details, that's all. Trying to prove that it is a different chassis for each version of the car is just a play on semantics, for a purpose that escapes me, except for somebody that has tunnel vision and only wants to prove that he is right. The only important variation is for the second serie of the 328, which has different anchoring suspensions pyramids, and which could merit the qualification of "different" chassis. You can write whatever you want, for as many messages you want, and hurt insects as much as you want and be as happy as you want: I don' mind. You will not make me change my mind about it. Of course, you are free to spent your time in as many wild goose chases as you want. I don't care the sligthtest about this. Rgds
Two additional 1” diagonal supports in the rear bulkhead does not make it a different chassis. BUT, having a body shop for over 20 years I have yet to see any convertible, import or otherwise that didn’t have additional longitudinal support. Think of a GTB ( hardtop ) as a bridge and structure over the bridge gives it rigidity. If you cut that rigidity out it has to be reinforced somewhere to put the rigidity back into the vehicle. Otherwise you would get so much flex in the chassis, when jacking it up the doors would pinch against body panels if closed, or might not fit at all when trying to close an open door. That said, looking under my door sills, it indeed looks like just a tube frame with no support. Kind of a scary thought LOL That’s why God created engineers!
Having a 328 GTB and a 328 GTS of almost similar vintage (five weeks between their production date...), when driving the GTS back-to-back after the GTB, I actually often wish that the factory had indeed designed a new chassis (read here: even with the addtional bracing tubes here and there, it lacks rigidity) for the GTS... Rgds
The basic chassis frame is the same with variants to make the key derivatives e.g. GTS, Federal cars etc, the same as the engine architecture is basically the same i.e. bore spacing, lets not forget in the 70's and 80's Ferrari was not a rich company so re-using basic architectures was common place to save money.
I don't know why people are getting hot under the collar over simple semantics, but these nuanced structural differences between the GTB & GTS across variants is very interesting in its own right. I learnt quite a few things whilst ducking the flying insults
talking as an enthusiast: it' nice to learn about all those small differences in the chassis tubes between the GTS and GTB. I didn't know them all and above all is very intersting as I learned they got the GTS chassis as a base for the rally car. Talking as an engineer, the only mods of the seen ones that can do a real difference (thank you Simon) are the increased door sills as they almost double the door sills moment of inertia (the cross section) of the (by far) weakest cross section (sorry for my poor tech English). They added two upwind rods in the B pillar and (maybe) increased a bit the rear tubes diameter, but the chassis stiffnes of the GTS is not very good. I think (as I didn't restore the chassis of my cars, there was no need, just the engines. i just know very well the engines and not the chassis) the only very important (for the GTS chassis) mods are the two increased door sills while the Others are much more important for a closed rallycar as they improved a lot a closed (biconnessa) section like the GTB while were not significant on an open (monoconnessa) section like the one of the GTS whose weak point was the momentum of inertia in the door sills (and you feel it clearly when you drive the car, also at slow speed and without being Gilles Villeneuve at all). Yes, ok: better than nothing, you will say. For example: the 308-328 cabriolet was abandoned as it didn't meet the safety crash test requirements. ciao
I should have added that, in the last issue of "Motorsport Magazine", there is a road test by Andrew Frankel of the McLaren 720S spider, and the McLaren technician responsible for the project claims that there is no additional support, reinforcment, etc...whatsoever added to the spider compared to the coupé. The difference in weight is only and entirely attributable to the folding roof mechanism. I have not much interest for modern cars (well, in fact none at all, as I think they have out-grown our roads with too much performance) so I'm slightly out of league here, but I found this interesting nevertheless. Rgds
What's the motivation, if a FChatter sets his profile to only viewable for selected members? Best Regards Martin
Simon did your gtb have any triangulation on the upper member that bridges the upper suspension points to the base of the cowl? the fiber glass foot boxes are constructed entirely different between the two since the gts has two triangulation braces. im not sure those are drawn tubes over the inner door sills. its looks like a reinforced fabricated box section on top of the large section longitudinal tubes.
The 2 triangulation braces at the front are not there and neither is the 2nd rail of the header as it is a glass car, the michelotto cars added a tube back in from the top of the suspension pick-up to the chassis, the roof structure tubes are very frail as is the A post on the GTB
i believe the a-pillars are beefed up on the gts to keep the windowsill upright. its astonishing how light the micholloto cars were (1075 kg?) given the weight of the 308 drivetrain. i shipped one out on a pallet it weighed a ton. michelotto bodies must have been wafer thin. have you weighed your car yet?
Not yet but I think one of the MAT cars was under 1000kg's dry. I would estimate an easy 25okgs has been lost, plus the Michelotto cars had lot so Kevlar bodywork plus titanium fasteners.
I just learned this morning, three hours ago, the true story of the one of one Ferrari 328 cabriolet. The story was told by the man that worked on the car and saw it from the beginning. It's really an INCREDIBLE story. It involves Ferrari and CBS at first, and then the Ferrari dealership in Modena at the time (Motor S.p.A., owned by count Antolini) and my friend Federico. Who did it!! ciao
It's so big that I'm considering how to tell it in the proper way and It's something so incredible that I want to check again from other sources: I do trust the man who told me all the story, but after so many years he could be confused about dates and so on, so I want to check also with others here in Modena area, as when you find such a big news, you don't want to make an error caused by any hurry. If confirmed it could rewrite what we know about Magnum P.I. cars I will keep you informed. ciao
