1981 QP III 5 Speed and 1986 QP III Auto

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by William Abraham, Nov 27, 2010.

  1. ATTENTION: http/https Bug Fix! Most of us have been experiencing problems staying logged in as we navigate the site. That is simply the result of links varying between http and https, which each require different logons. To resolve we are going to force https starting sometime Wednesday. However, you may have problems accessing FerrariChat until after you log out, clear cookies/browser cache, and log back on. Keep in mind my email is admin@ferrarichat.com if you do have access problems after Wednesday. Thanks!
  1. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    I am starting a thread to set out details on my QP IIIs and work done and being done. Some of you thought this may be of interest and, while most posts are far more technical than I am capable of doing, I do have some practical experience and thoughts.

    My journey so far included buying a QP III in the US and paying a highly recommended shop there to restore it only to find that they had taken the money and left it sitting outside - sad. I almost gave up then but bought another and had it shipped to the UK - car was really just parts and the "independent" inspection must have been faked. Sadly, I had to sell it for parts. Finally, I bought a car from Switzerland which was a very nice solid useable example - used regularly, very good condition and maintenance as it was owned by a diplomat. It did need some things done to it mainly a paint job which has been done. It is now in the process of being put back together but some decisions need to be made.

    While it was in I was offered the low mileage 5 speed and thougth like some of you on other threads it might be the ultimate car. I did manage to buy it and import it from South Africa and it is a very nice car but by no means perfect. Also, the seller has not yet forwarded the rest of the history file so it is missing some of this. Anyway, this is the QPIII story! Would love to keep the 5 speed but my wife cannot use the clutch so not that versatile.
     
  2. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #2 William Abraham, Nov 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  3. carnutdr

    carnutdr Rookie

    Jul 8, 2007
    48
    Cameron, NC 28326
    Full Name:
    Morton Meltzer
    What are you doing with the car??
    I have an 86 with 5 speed manual and 80,82 & 84 but those are automatics. the 84 & 85 are Euro versions.
    I love my 5 speed manual car but took almost 8 years to restore it.
    Mort
     
  4. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #4 William Abraham, Nov 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well. I typed a long piece and it was lost loading up - annoying.

    Anyway, the 86 was a nice car that had had regular use and was obviously cared for. Swiss diplomat owner and all the books etc. It was not quite as nice as was described and basically needed some TLC on a very good car. The process started with a full paint job which has now been completed. The car is with a shop in London for putting back on the road and upgrading etc. I have decision to make as to what if any changes will be made. I will put some pics of this car as it was when I got it. I have the low mileage 5 speed 81 so I was tempted to consider some alterations to the 86 as I will be driving it a lot. I was intrigued by the improvements to HP people are looking at. Not sure if mine needs it because it wasnt running as well as it could have been when it went into the body shop. I will send a separate email on what has been done, what will be done and what questions I have. Clearly, if you have done a lot of work I would love to see what improvements you made.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  5. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #5 William Abraham, Nov 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    More pictures - Below is the original advertisement.

    Quatoporte 3,LHD.1 Swiss diplomat owner from new,finished in Dark Aquamarine blue with superb tan full leather,in complete origional condition,over carpetsalways fitted,
    full MOT,taxed and UK registered,all Origional books,manuals,service book and a beautifull colour brochure from new.Upon inspection the MOT testing garage were amazed as the underside of the car is totally AS NEW,there are a new set of XWX tyres,and stainless exhaust,the spare wheel,and all tools plus jack have NEVER been out of the tool bag or wheel never fitted to the car.l drove this car From Montreau ,over 1200 miles without any problems whatsoever and at times @130 mph,this is a sensational piece of kit and cost over £89K when new, l am asking only £9950....l will drive or ship this world wide

    Fact File

    Make
    Maserati

    Model
    Quatroporte Series 3

    Price
    £9,950 ono
    (approx. €12,636 or $19,806)

    Year
    1987

    Category
    Sports Coupe

    Mileage
    69000 Miles

    Colour
    Blue Dark

    Transmission
    Automatic

    LHD / RHD
    LHD

    Convertible
    No

    Location
    Solihull,
    Warwickshire, UK

    Private / Trade
    Private

    Car ID
    23275

    No of Views
    2524

    Confirmed For Sale
    10 days ago
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  6. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    6,887
    lexington ky usa
    Full Name:
    mitchell barnes
    wishing you better experiences with future repair shops and vendors. i spent about 50,000 on crooks and finally became burnt out on fixing and repair projects as $$'s became harder with the slowing business and market. all are parked until i take another deep breath. what started out as fun ended very suddenly. i wish you much better. i have five parked QP 3's
     
  7. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  8. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    wishing you better experiences with future repair shops and vendors. i spent about 50,000 on crooks and finally became burnt out on fixing and repair projects as $$'s became harder with the slowing business and market. all are parked until i take another deep breath. what started out as fun ended very suddenly. i wish you much better. i have five parked QP 3's[/QUOTE]

    Yes I know the feeling and really the key is to be able to do more ourselves however that just has not been possible! Almost gave up after the last rusting remnant arrived from Florida - seller said it must have rusted away on the ship as it was good when it left! Reminds me of my favourite quote from the Outlaw Josie Wales - "dont piss down my back and tell me its rainin". We have slowed things down her as well as things have been very very slow. Still the two I have now are good cars and at least worth doing some work on.

    I guess we must keep the faith!

    Ciao
     
  9. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    The 81 is probably too original to consider many if any changes. The 86 though is a great car but needs a fair amount refreshed so I was debating some modest changes! Don't send hate mail!!!! These are thoughts and I am not taking out the motor to replace it with a Viper

    I am considering what stereo system will work best. I was intrigued to see the speaker that someone pictured that fit right in! It would be good to have parking sensors and a GPS system - I did see one recently that fit in with the radio and came out like a CD tray (almost a necessity in the UK although you can have a removable one).

    I have had a high flow rad core put in but given the problems I have had with fans on the 81 I would likely consider putting in a set of upgraded fans if there was an easy fit? Thoughts? Also a switch to turn the fans on manually.

    I know some cars came with special order light leather (mainly for the Arab market) and I need to do some work on some leather (drivers seat has a cigar burn - did everyone who owned a Maserati smoke a cigar - my other car has the same issue). I was considering leaving the dark brown parts like the wheel and dash pod brown and putting an ivory interior in as seen in the new Quattroporte(saving the original of course). It would have to be an exceptional job to make it worth while. Could heated seats be added or would the electrical gremlins strike?

    What else have people done that is sensible if you really do want to drive the car?

    Ciao

    W
     
  10. sowest

    sowest Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 18, 2006
    895
    Although I never got to see the car up close, there was a QP III here that had a Chrysler 440 engine in it. It seems a natural choice for an engine swap as it is the normal mate to the automatic gearbox in the QP. The big drawback in my mind is that the 440 is a VERY heavy engine.

    This car was a very sad case. I was able to see it from about 100 feet away. It was rusting away in a storage yard, locked behind a chain link fence. The owner had some serious medical problems and suffered some brain damage. He would come by the shop and talk and would make plans to rescue the car, but time after time, he would not follow through. He would tell me about all the new parts that he had stashed in the car. The area where the car was has been redeveloped. The car is gone. I have no idea what happened to it.
     
  11. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #10 William Abraham, Nov 30, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2010
    There was one for sale recently with an alternative motor. I love the 4.9 but would love to see a bit more power! We are spoilt nowadays.

    If there was a good car with no motor I wonder if the VIPER motor would be the right choice as it is linked to Lamborghini and has been lightened. I wont be doing that with any of mine but it would be fun to see a super muscle car done up like the Barry White show that rescues the wrecks ( I can give him a few).

    Dont get the wrong idea - I love the original cars. Like my old XJ6 it is only with a few fixes you can get them to work right. They did not have a good enough cooling suystem - fixes available and they ate alternators like they were going out of season - again a modest upgrade available.

    Ciao
     
  12. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    6,887
    lexington ky usa
    Full Name:
    mitchell barnes
    what is this, sounds like street dragsters! or old geezers in second childhood? just kidding. one of my QP3's came with a 350 chevy. i road in a supercharged car with the the 4.9.
     
  13. staatsof

    staatsof Four Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    46,189
    Hiddin' in da garden
    Full Name:
    Boo
    Check with Jay Witham who's already done a supercharged 4.9 as well as a nitrous version.

    I was told he's taken Jim Heady's (Lamborghini Club) old QPIII and is installing a Viper motor and suspension in the car. Should be pretty GD extreme.
     
  14. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  15. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    Well - I got the car back with its new clutch in. There was some discussion about balancing the scored flywheel or not. I did not get that done. Now it seems to work but when the car is idling it does sound like somthing is rumbling. This goes away when the clutch is depressed. Perhaps it will settle in. The clutch needs to go to be depressed all the way but bites immediately. I think probably the entire thing should be taken out and balanced properly. Thoughts from the experts.

    Anyway, the supposed gearbox repair was a waste. It now whines and still 3rd gear does not engage every time. I will have to pop it out again and have it rebuilt properly.

    Drama drama drama! It will be great to have a proper fix so a bit more work to be done...
     
  16. sowest

    sowest Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 18, 2006
    895
    Hi William

    I am very sorry to hear about the troubles that you are having. If I may, I will offer some thoughts. They might be worth exactly what you will pay for them.....;>)

    First. I don't think any of the problems that you have described have anything to do with balance. A flywheel and clutch assembly that is not dynamically balanced will not make any noise. It will cause some vibration, but even then, it would have to be terribly out of balance for you to actually feel it.

    A rumbling noise that goes away when the clutch is depressed points towards the gearbox. Of course, the gears and bearings are spinning when the clutch is engaged and they stop (or should stop) when the clutch is disengaged. I hope we can at least give them credit for filling the gearbox with oil. Unusual or excessive noise from the gearbox points to bearings. It is true that even a good gearbox can be quite noisy. Can we assume that all of the sound insulation material and gear lever boots have been properly replaced?

    Clutch engagement and release can be a pain. The mechanical arrangement of the pressure plate provides a very small amount of lift to the plate.The thickness of the driven disc and the amount of "wave" in the fingers that the friction material is riveted to has an effect on release and engagement points.Although I don't have any real "data" to back this up, it is my impression that, with a diaphragm clutch, a worn disc will release and engage towards the top of the travel and a new and thicker disc will release and engage closer to the bottom of the pedal travel. The adjustment of clutch free play will play a role here. It sounds like you should shoot for minimum free play. I think that your car has a carbon type release bearing, so it is important that the release bearing does have SOME free play.

    I am not sure what you mean by third gear not engaging every time. Each gear on the shaft has to have proper side clearance and the linkage has to be properly aligned and the pads that move the engagement sleeves can't be overly worn. When the gear does engage, does it ever "pop out" of gear under either acceleration or deceleration?

    I have not seen a QP III with a 5-speed, but I do have some experience with this gearbox in Aston Martins. They can be kind of "stiff" and "notchy".

    I remember having to make some special tools and pullers for the first DB-6 gearbox that I did. It is very bad practice to push or pull bearings using the balls of the bearing to transmit the force.
     
  17. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #15 William Abraham, Dec 8, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
    Thanks for your very helpful note. I am sure it is the gearbox that requires a fix. I did have it out at a recommended shop and they could not articulate what it needed (something about needing a new case)/couldnt find parts supplier/ shop needed the bay etc etc so they put it back on. Post this it is much noisier so I am sure there are some things needed and I will have to get it done.

    As to third gear if you change from second to third the lever moves down the full throw but there is no gear which can be a bit disconcerting to say the least. If you touch another gear and then put it in in will engage third. Not spitting out or grinding etc. I had described this in a technical post to ZF and their reply was: "Dear Sir,

    I think the gear shift rail or the gear shift fork is broken. For maintenance und repairing please contact our sercvice station in GB"

    However, contacting ZF got a negative response for assistance as "they don't service them any more".

    I have found a couple of places that SAY they will do it or have parts so we shall see.

    Pet Peeve - I guess I understand it but if you drive up anywhere in your classic Maserati you get admirers (if only for your bravery to take it on!). The only place you are actively avoided and ignored is the Maserati forecourts - a positive chill descends and the salesmen run to look busy. 1. Either afraid you will offer it in trade or 2. You will need something. Anyone else found that?

    Ciao
     
  18. sowest

    sowest Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 18, 2006
    895
    Hi William

    I do feel your pain. I am in a small market in the middle of the ocean and it is a huge challenge to get anything done. Often, I find not only are they unable to provide a solution, they are unable to even understand the problem. I do understand the difficulty that a shop would have with a project that they see as a hole without a bottom. I am having fun and getting satisfaction out of the A/C project on my own QP, but I do wonder, "Could I do this as a paying job for a customer?"

    Your third gear selection problem seems like a gear lever or selector rail issue to me. I wonder if, somehow, the bottom of the gear lever is able to slide between the rails. This would give you the motion in the gear lever without actually selecting the gear. Is there a difference in the "feel" as the gear lever moves between a normal gear selection and a failed gear selection? Is there enough access to be able to get to these parts without having to remove the gearbox?

    Did the shop actually dismantle the gearbox when it was out for the clutch? I was just wondering if the previous owner had some trouble with the noise and put some kind of extra heavy oil in to mask the problem and when this last shop put in the correct oil the noise became apparent again.

    Good luck! Please keep us informed as you progress.
     
  19. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    6,887
    lexington ky usa
    Full Name:
    mitchell barnes
    Maserati dealers and service have no real clue to anything but how much money they can extract from customers. get all the $$ to hell with anything beyond. this has been my sad experience. i work on manual gear boxes for a living. so here is my two cents. third gear problem should be a sync. blocking ring problem. as you shift into another gear the turn speed is reduced enough to allow the worn or damaged blocking ring to be offset. new noise is a damaged surface/bearing. needles between in and output shafts may have fallen out at reassemble. would not be the first time. that would also explain the shift problem. a needle bearing stuck between the shafts would push the gear away from the blocking ring. i make gears as well. i really hope you will not need my services because of cost. feel free to ask questions. DO NOT drive the car nor start the engine until the transmission is repaired.
     
  20. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    Thanks for you emails. It cannot be the last email thank God because I have been driving it. It seems like the first as when the gearshift moves and does not engage there is not gear feel or engagement at all. It is like it is slipping past the entire mechanism. As soon as I can I will get it sent off for full repair.
     
  21. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #19 William Abraham, Dec 12, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2010
    Well. I took the car in for another look. Gearbox is ZF S5 24-3 1102 stickliste 1249003010 .

    Clearly, something is not right and it does grumble when the clutch is released. Also smells a bit. Scary so I am taking advice and will get it out asap. When they opened it for a look they must have left something a bit off.

    Anyway, there is one for sale in London which is very similar in number. Does anyone know if it will bolt right on?

    "Here i have a very rare ZF 5 speed manual gearbox model number S5-24-3 although this gearbox type was made from 1982 what makes this rare is the ratios and what car they were made for namely Vantage 580 X pack and the Virrage, the ratios are as follows
    1st- 2.91
    2nd- 1.78
    3rd- 1.22
    4th- 1-1
    5th- 0.84
    Reverse 2.65
    other numbers on the gearbox are 1249003-020

    she is in excellent condition, i have spoken to Aston martin and they tell me they are very rare. "

    I will try to get this one in then set out the saga of the ZF rebuild. Ciao PICTURE IS NOT MINE BUT ONE PICTURED ON A WEB SITE!
     
  22. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #20 William Abraham, Dec 12, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2010
    This is a picture of the ZF for sale that may fit while mine is getting redone!!

    Gearbox is ZF S5 24-3 1102 stickliste 1249003010 This is mine.... The one for sale is 1249003-020
    Is the number difference critical?
     
  23. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #21 William Abraham, Dec 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  24. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    6,887
    lexington ky usa
    Full Name:
    mitchell barnes
    ultimate beauty to my eyes
     
  25. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #23 William Abraham, Dec 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  26. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #24 William Abraham, Dec 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  27. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #25 William Abraham, Dec 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

Share This Page