1983 308 GTSi qv (Euro) won't start - need troubleshooting help | FerrariChat
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1983 308 GTSi qv (Euro) won't start - need troubleshooting help

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by fly4re, Nov 7, 2006.

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  1. fly4re

    fly4re Rookie

    Nov 7, 2006
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    #1 fly4re, Nov 7, 2006
    My 83 308 GTSi qv sat for a few months. Normally it starts right up even after sitting for months at a time. This time - it just cranks and cranks and never starts up. I checked all fuses and they're all ok. I pulled the fuel line off where it enters the fuel distributor and cranked the engine expecting fuel to come out. Nothing came out. Shouldn't fuel have come out?

    This leads me to believe that it's the fuel pump... Is my assumption accurate? I switched out the fuel pump relay with another relay (same part#) from a different circuit. Still nothing...

    If I replace the fuel pump, should I replace the accumulator at the the same time? The acculuator has a vent that appears to have been leaking fuel. (I have smelled fuel in the garage and seen marks on the floor as well, directly under it)

    Thanks to anyone who can offer any thoughts...
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #2 Steve Magnusson, Nov 7, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Some things to try:

    Remove the ...113 fuel pump relay and touch a jumper wire from the 30 terminal to the bottommost 87 terminal in the relay socket as shown in the jpeg:

    -- if the fuel pump does not run (you should be able to confirm/deny just by the sound) -- probably is a bad fuel pump if the jumper wire is at +12V relative to ground. If the jumper wire is not at +12V relative to ground, it's a fuse/fusebox/power junction problem.

    -- if the fuel pump runs OK -- remove the jumper wire, replace the ...113 fuel pump relay, and try another ...101 relay in the relay F position (start electro-valve control relay).
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  3. fly4re

    fly4re Rookie

    Nov 7, 2006
    17
    #3 fly4re, Nov 7, 2006
    Thanks 91tr... As I mentioned in my OP, I had already switched the fuel pump relay (...113) with another known good 113 relay once I figured out it was a a fuel issue.

    In any case - I tried your suggestion and the fuel pump did not run. I also confirmed that there is 12v on Pin 30 with my meter.

    I do not have a schematic though and I am not sure that pin 87 goes directly to the fuel pump. Can you or anyone else confirm that?

    Thanks!
     
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #4 Steve Magnusson, Nov 7, 2006
    Yes, the 87 side of the fuel pump relay socket goes quasi-directly to the fuel pump motor (the schematic is in the back of your OM). Having the +12V present on the 30 terminal is a quasi-good sign, but did you measure this with the jumper wire in place? If that terminal 30 socket is +12V when the fuel pump relay is removed, but drops to a low voltage when the jumper wire is present, this would indicate a bad fusebox and/or power junction (i.e. something upstream of the relay socket). If terminal 30 stays at +12V with the jumper wire in place (and the fuel pump doesn't run), the problem is the terminal 87 to wire to fuel pump to ground path (i.e. something downstream from the relay socket).
     
  5. fly4re

    fly4re Rookie

    Nov 7, 2006
    17
    #5 fly4re, Nov 8, 2006
    Unfortunately, the previous owner either didn't have the OM or didn't want to give it to me... not sure which. He was the second owner and claimed that he never got it from the original owner.

    I tested the voltage without the relay and got 11.8V - when I add the jumper I measure 11.6V - still sufficient I assume to indicate that it is not a fusebox/power issue?

    I suppose it's time to crawl under the car and check the voltage at the fuel pump before I go spending the $$$ to get a new one, huh?
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 Steve Magnusson, Nov 8, 2006
    Get registered at www.owners.ferrari.com and you can download a .pdf copy of the OM for free.

    Unfortunately, that is correct.
     
  7. fly4re

    fly4re Rookie

    Nov 7, 2006
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    #7 fly4re, Nov 8, 2006
    91tr - are you sure that jumper diagram of the relay for the fuel pump is correct? The reason I ask is there are TWO pins labeled 87. If I jump the pin 30 to the bottom pin 87 - nothing happens. If I jump pin 30 to the middle pin 87, I hear a thump in the engine compartment and my 24 gauge jumper wire starts getting hot quick.

    What is the middle pin 87 for?
     
  8. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
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    #8 Ken, Nov 8, 2006
    Sounds like the pin for the relay to switch off as opposed to on.

    BTW...there IS gas in the tank, right? *S*

    Ken
     
  9. fly4re

    fly4re Rookie

    Nov 7, 2006
    17
    #9 fly4re, Nov 8, 2006
    That is actually a good question to ask Ken. I was unsure myself when I started troubleshooting, so I dumped a gallon in there... just to make sure :)

    Update: When jumping pin 30 to pin 87 ( the middle pin 87) I climbed under that car and measured 9.6 volts at the fuel pump. I heard a thump sound when the voltage was applied. Is 9.6 volts enough? Should I hear the pump running? After the thump sound, I heard nothing - yet still had voltage. I also have the fuel line disconnected at the fuel distributor, and no fuel came out.

    Still not sure if this is a "bad" fuel pump or not... For $320 - I want to be sure...
     
  10. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
    #10 jwise, Nov 8, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I would unplug the blue Bosch plug that connects to the fuel dist, and then turn on the ignition. The pump should start whizzing away. Have you tried this yet?

    If the accumulator is leaking fuel, you know you need one of those. Might as well go ahead and replace that first.
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  11. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 BigTex, Nov 8, 2006
    I have a part number on the pump.......FACET makes it........hit it with a wrench when energized...no kidding...........that voltage sounds low though, is your battery fully charged?
     
  12. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #12 Steve Magnusson, Nov 8, 2006
    If you examine the ...113 relay you will see that the two 87 terminal positions are electrically connected by the terminal strip on the relay. I shouldn't have specifically identified the bottommost one (my bad) -- I should have said "the 87 position with the female metal terminal" (or either if they both have female terminals -- but this would surprise me -- is there a female terminal in only the middle 87 location or both 87 positions?).

    24 gauge is a little puny except for a few second test. When it's working correctly, the current in the jumper wire would be 9~11A, and, if the motor is not rotating, there's no back EMF so the current is even higher. Also, at such a high current load (assuming it's not working), the battery voltage drooping down a bit is normalish.

    As Jwise said, you should hear a smooth mechanical whizzing if the pump is actually running -- if you had a TR, you'd have a second one for comparison ;) Do you have the 10 digit Bosch PN stamped on your existing fuel pump?
     
  13. fly4re

    fly4re Rookie

    Nov 7, 2006
    17
    #13 fly4re, Nov 8, 2006
    Jwise - I pulled that "blue" plug - didn't change anything - still no fuel - and no whizzing.

    BigTex - my fuel pump is a Bosch - not FACET. I had 11.8 volts at the relay - so I think my battery is pretty good. (I have tried a half dozen times to crank the engine for 5-10 seconds - so I am sure it has drained a bit - but it still cranks strong) I also cannot really hit the fuel pump with a wrench as it is in a tight spot. I'm dreading having to replace it, the accumulator, and the fuel filter.

    91tr - Both my 87 pin female sockets have wires on the back. Both are brown/tan - but the one in the middle "appears" to be the same color and gauge as the fuel pump wire... probably 12 gauge. The wire connected to the bottom 87 pin is only 16 gauge. I see on the diagram on the side of the relay that both 87 pins get power from pin 30 when the relay is energized. Should I be jumping pin 30 to BOTH pin 87's? (Again - without a schematic, I have no idea where the lower pin 87 wire goes.) Side note: I joined owners.ferrari.com about 8 hours ago and still cannot access the site. I have written customer service - and have not received a response.

    The Bosch PN stamped on my fuel pump is 0 580 254 975

    I was able to find one at rockauto.com for $255 - any idea where I can get one a little cheaper?
     
  14. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    #14 f355spider, Nov 8, 2006
  15. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    #15 spirot, Nov 8, 2006
    This is a stab in the dark... but I had the same thing happen on my 86 328... and it was a connector down in the Passanger foowell.... connector was cracked.... it was intermittant... but with tempreture change it was real erattic.... I would go to the online Ferrari Manual section and trace the circuit to the fule pump... if you have power at the fuse block but not at the pump... I would check the connectors along the way.... before replacing the pump... PM me I have a wiring schematic for my old 85 QV ... I think ... the wiring diagram is horrific to see.. its so tiny.... but I would suspect that may be your problem...
     
  16. fly4re

    fly4re Rookie

    Nov 7, 2006
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    #16 fly4re, Nov 8, 2006
    No davehanda... I am still not "convinced" that it is the fuel pump - but I must admit that it is looking that way. If the accumulator "failed", could it block the fuel line so tight that the fuel pump couldn't rotate? Could the fuel filter be so gummed up with bad fuel from sitting so long that it completely blocks the fuel line? My initial reaction to those questions is no. If those parts failed - SOME fuel should still get through - wouldn't you think? I don't even get a single drop of fuel at the fuel distributor... and the fuel pump thumps - but doesn't "whiz" as others have indicated it should.

    Spirot... I do have voltage at the fuel pump - although not a full 12V. Everytime I jump/bypass the FP relay - I hear a thump at the pump - but that's it. NO "whizzing" sound as others have said I should hear. This leads be to believe that my electrical system is working properly. Also, I'm not sure that your 328 has the same fuel system. I have the Bosch K-Jetronic CIS system.
     
  17. msouza

    msouza Formula Junior

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    #17 msouza, Nov 8, 2006
    Fly4re,

    You have not stated how long your car has been sitting, so I'm assuming its been a long while. most likely the fuel in the pump has dried and gummed up the pump, thus the reason you are hearing the "thump"; its probably frozen. Do as BigTex suggested - hit it with a wrench - at this point you have nothing to loose. Remove the left rear wheel, and the fender inner liner to gain good access to the pump. If that does not work, its time to go for a new pump. Bt the way the 328 uses basically the same Bosch CIS system as your car.

    Milton
     
  18. fly4re

    fly4re Rookie

    Nov 7, 2006
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    #18 fly4re, Nov 8, 2006
    Milton,

    Actually, I stated in the very first sentence of my original post that my car had been sitting "for a few months". Maybe since July/August. When I had it up North - it used to sit from October until April and start right up every year.

    In any case, I did what you and Big Tex suggested and hit it. Then I tried jumping the relay again - same thumping noise. So I hit it again - harder. Same thing. I even tried repeatedly jumping it trying to jerk it into spinning... still nothing.
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #19 Steve Magnusson, Nov 8, 2006
    No, as you surmised the larger wire is for the fuel pump and the smaller wire is for running other things in the injection system (e.g., the heater in the AAV, the heater in the warm-up regulator, etc.). The schematic actually shows the +12V power coming in a single large P (beige) wire to the 87 terminal and going out the two P wires on the 30 terminal (the large one to the fuel pump and the small one to the other stuff), but they often aren't too careful about keeping 30 vs 87 straight since it doesn't really matter if you switch the two.

    www.importeccatalog.com shows that Bosch PN available for $215.60
     
  20. msouza

    msouza Formula Junior

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    #20 msouza, Nov 8, 2006
  21. fly4re

    fly4re Rookie

    Nov 7, 2006
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    #21 fly4re, Nov 9, 2006
    91tr and Milton:

    You both have be curious and confused now. I went to both sites and searched for 0 580 254 975 (the part number on my Bosch Fuel Pump)

    Both sites gave me different part numbers than the OEM PN, and pumps that are $100 different in prices. How do I know if either one is the pump I am looking for?

    importeccatalog.com has this part #E3000-117875 for $215.60

    autohausaz.com has this part #69609 for $113.14
    It also has a note: For models with CIS fuel injection (0580254942 or 61942 pump). I don't recognoize either of those numbers - so I am leary of this part.

    At least the two other sites that davehanda came up with both cross-referenced to the same part number as importeccatalog.com: #E3000-117875

    I'm going to assume that #E3000-117875 is an accurate cross...
     
  22. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    #22 f355spider, Nov 9, 2006
    I saw that autohausaz listing and it is obviously not what you want, so I did not post it....
     
  23. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #23 Steve Magnusson, Nov 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Welcome to sourcing F parts on your own ;)

    I think those "E3000-XXXX" type numbers are Mercedes-Benz format numbers.

    There are two (or maybe more) types of CIS fuel pumps -- early ones have the check valve built into the pump head, but the later ones have the check valve as a separately replaceable piece. That Autohaus CIS pump is the later style with the screw-in style check valve and the banjo fitting connection (and maybe the body shape is a little different). The two photos below show the difference in how the output tube connects to the check valve, but I think matching the 10 digit Bosch PN on your actual pump is the least risky approach (even if the Seller cross-references to the M-B number).
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  24. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    #24 miketuason, Nov 9, 2006
    fly4re do you realy want to know the best way to find out if your fuel pump is working? Here's what you do, get an 8 foot or so of 14guage wire or around 14guage or so, then pull the + side wire from the fuel pump and attatch one end of the 8foot long wire to the + side of the FP and the other end to the + (pos) side of the battery, you should hear the pump humm or buzz and while it's buzzing, try to crank it over and it should start, and if the car start, then you know the FP is good.
     
  25. fly4re

    fly4re Rookie

    Nov 7, 2006
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    #25 fly4re, Nov 9, 2006
    91tr: My system is exactly like your top image. You are probably right about the part numbers. The 0 580 254 975 fuel pump was also used in 1986-1988 Mercedes Benz 190E vehicles. So, it is also known as E3000-117875.

    Miketauson: That was a great idea. Supply +12V directly to the FP + terminal. I did so, and I still hear the initial thump - but no whizzing sound. And I don't get any fuel out of the line up at the fuel distributor.

    I am ordering a new fuel pump and filter today.
     
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