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1984 308 steering rack issues

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by bocaspyder360, Jan 19, 2008.

  1. bocaspyder360

    bocaspyder360 Karting

    Jan 18, 2008
    128
    I was told I need to replace the inner tie rods on my 1984 308.. but someone told me they cannot be changed? Anyone know the truth about this? It all started when i brought the car in for an aliagnment..
     
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  3. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
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    Dec 21, 2000
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    I'm glad you brought this up as I too am having issues with my rack (it appears the bushings inside are completely worn-out as I can wiggle it up and down easily) and I have had no success so far trying to locate a new rack (the GT4's rack is apparently a TRW unit, P/N:3759039), or at least someone who supplies internal/external parts so I can fix it myself...
     
  4. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    Check with Eurospares or Superformance in the UK. I know the tie rods and inner ends are available with a new rack and pinion rebuild kit through Superformance, but I dont know if they are individually. As to the outer bushing inside the rack, I cut my own on the lathe out of Delrin. The next one I will probably make out of good bronze bushing material.
     
  5. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    I cant see the reason to change the tie rods unless they are bent.The tie rod ends wear out and can be replaced.I put a bronze bush in my steering rack.It cost me $250 to rebuild including new gators but I supplied the bush and tie rod ends.
     
  6. Jdubbya

    Jdubbya Two Time F1 World Champ
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  8. bocaspyder360

    bocaspyder360 Karting

    Jan 18, 2008
    128
    I dont have a machine shop to make the needed worn out parts that connect to me inner tie rods.. I know I can buy a rebuilt unit that has everything, but on my car its only the inner tie rod connections that are bad, so why change out the whole unit.. I would love some info on how and where I can get the parts I need to have my mechanic correct my problem and I can get my car alaigned correctly
     
  9. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

    Feb 12, 2004
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    Bocaspyder360;
    You probably have a Cam Gears rack, the Inner tie rod ends are adjustable, and the later rack’s have a plastic Spherical joint shim which loosens up frequently.

    Peter;
    Your rack uses a .9051 Pass bushing, the below rack kit will not work for you. You need a Red manual kit; it contains the two different sized boots, and the correct bushing (not to be confused with the Long Book kit for the Mondi, and Testerossa).

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ferra...QQcmdZViewItem

    I have 2 New inner tie rods for your TRW rack as long as the threads are 14 x 1.5 mm, the later racks used a 22 mm thread.

    I would post a pic, but I’m out of space, PM me if you want a photo.
     
  10. bocaspyder360

    bocaspyder360 Karting

    Jan 18, 2008
    128
    I was told that my inner tie rods are no good and need to be changed out.... and I cant find the parts alone.. just complete steering racks... any thoughs or idea's? again my car is a 1984 308 euro car
     
  11. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    By chance, do you know of a source for the later 22mm inner tie rod ends?

    The smaller ends look remarkably similar to what used on a Volvo with a TRW/Cam Gear rack, though the threads for the outer tie rod end are different. Do you have a PN for those earlier ends. Thanks!

    Regards,
    David
     
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  13. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

    Feb 12, 2004
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    Bocaspyder360,
    While your inners may be toast, most likely, who told you that did not know they can be adjusted. Rack parts haven’t been available for a long time.

    Fastradio,
    No, save you self the trouble of looking, they are not available, you can’t interchange them, there are none that are even close which you could cannibalize to accommodate the size. Volvo will not fit, Ferrari was the black sheep child, they used a metric thread on the rack end, and a ½-20 on the outer tie rod end, no other manufacture used this set up. You could probably make some kind of adapter / extension, but I wouldn’t feel save driving that car.

    Are you referring to the outer tie rod end? I have limited access to these, sometimes.
     
  14. bocaspyder360

    bocaspyder360 Karting

    Jan 18, 2008
    128
    adjusted without replacing parts? Please give me more details..

    thanks
     
  15. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

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    It's not a lot of help without pic's, but here ya go.

    1.) The inner tie rod uses spherical joints where the inner tie rods connect to the rack bar. Place the inner tie rod in a vice near the Spherical joint, and bend back the locking tab on the nut. There may be two small flat on the inner tie rod these are designed to place special holding tools instead of vice jaws. Its best if you place the rods in the vice on theses flats. An L-shaped prying tool is essential to perform this job. Make sure you thoroughly un-peen the indentation in the tie rod, the steel is soft, and an out of round lock ring will damage the threads (you shouldn’t have to muscle the ring off of the rack). The ring should turn reasonably easily; if you have to force it, STOP! A customized chisel (grind down a flat screwdriver) can be used to start un-peening. (If you’re planning to remove only one side, remove the passenger’s side, this way you will not damage the plastic bushing on reinstallation of the rack in the housing).
    The second type of SV joint used a lock nut and a.1875 drive pin in between the SV joint and the lock nut to prevent them from coming unscrewed. Prior to removing the SV joint, you will need to drill the pin out, using a 5/32 drill bit, only drill down to the threaded portion. When you are reinstalling the joint, you most likely will have to drill a new hole between the SV joint and lock nut, because the joint will need to be tightened slightly more than when it was taken apart. Drill the new hole using a slightly smaller drill #13 or #14. Drive a piece of .1875” diameter rod into the hole and cut it off flush. Use a punch and peen the edges of the material to prevent the rod from coming out of the hole.

    2.) Now use the appropriate sized Spanner Wrench, Vice Grip Pliers, or Pipe Wrench. Turn counterclockwise until the tie rod assembly separates from the rack. There is a spring, thrust cup and sometimes small shims inside each of these joints. Don’t loose them and take note of their order.

    3.) Install the Spherical joint on the rack, Install all the parts which came out of each side, screw the nut onto the rack, bottom the inner tie rod assembly on the rack, torque the nut using a crows foot wrench and torque wrench (use a wrench on the rack to avoid internal gear damage.) support the rack and housing and stake the tie rod housing to rack flat. Inspect the stake so a .010 “feeler gage will not pass between rack flat and housing.
     
  16. NC Mondial

    NC Mondial Formula Junior
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    More often than not most of the play in a steering rack is due to the outer bushing wearing out on the right side. Here is a link to Pantera Parts, the rack is the same one used on Pantera's.

    Click on link, on the left hand side scroll down to Ordering Parts and click on Parts Kit List, then go to Steering Rack Kits. They have most of the parts, including the outer bushing. I bought one for my '82 Mondial and it worked fine.

    http://www.panteraparts.com/

    Paul
     
  17. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

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    The 308 and Mondial do not use the same rack, the Mondi rack is 2.0” longer. While some of the internal components are the same, the Passenger side bushings are not, .9015 and .84125 respectively. The Pantera rack bushings are Bronze, not something which should be used on a precision ground shaft; sure, the bushing will never wear out, but the shaft will. Ferrari used a three point plastic bushing for a reason; the bushing is the wear point, not the hardened ground rack shaft, the bushing also acts as a spring for the rack cushioning it during rough vibration conditions. Also, if you choose to use the Pantera bushing, you will have to precision hone the bushing after you have installed it or you will never be able to shove the rack back in, the Pantera guys use a brake hone, but usually this ends with a parabola shaped bushing. The other down side to using a solid bronze bushings, is how is the lubrication going to pass through the bushing when your steering? It simply can not, consequently why Ferrari used a three point bushing which allows fluid to pass from the passenger side boot to the steering gear.
     
  18. bocaspyder360

    bocaspyder360 Karting

    Jan 18, 2008
    128
    So what do I do then if my INNER tie rods need replacing? lol I am not a mechanic... so what I need to know is where I can get the parts if parts can be bought.. or what or where I can go to get the correct parts or information.. thanks again
     
  19. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

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    I seriously doubt you need to replace the Inner tie rods, I'm 90% certain. Many, maybe most mechanics simply do not realize some Ferrari inner tie rods are adjustable. Nearly every other manufacture uses a complete replacement component, matter of fact; I can’t think of another adjustable inner tie rod out there except F, and P, maybe someone can enlighten me.

    PM me and I’ll see if I can’t help you.
     
  20. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    I dont know if the rack physically changed from what was used on the early cars to what an 1984 model has, but on both my cars there are passageways in the rack housing for lubricant to pass around the bushing. A solid bushing has no effect of lubricant flow, it simply pours right through. Both mine are CamGear racks. I do notice the same part number on Eurospares covers all the 308 GT4/GTB/GTS cars all the way through the QV, as well the 206/246 Dino, but they all superscede from original numbers.
     
  21. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

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    CG racks have 3 broached slots in the pass side casting to allow fluids and air to pass, the lubricant is designed to be between the rack and bushing; TRW flared the steal housing, i.e. no passage.

    Lock to center; you are compressing / expanding close to 12 oz of lube and air. Both need to go somewhere, the early racks did not have enough space for the air to compress into, and if the boot was compromised, you would squirt lube out (it just couldn't travel from one end of the tube to the other fast enough). The later design incorporated these extra passages, and took care of theproblem. A solid bushing whether metal or plastic mimics this same problem, you do not have lubrication where it’s needed, and you compromise the racks ability to transfer lube and air.

    The plastic bushings design are different (CG straight pressed in bushing, TRW 3 tabs pop in), but even the CG bushing uses the triangular design to allow for shock absorption, which also allow lubricant to travel between the rack and bushing, where it’s designed to be, lubrication going around the bushing through the 3 broached passage ways is not lubricating.

    Ferrari over the 3x8 production used 13 different numbers, as close as I can tell; they would change the part number for something as simple as going from hardened inner tie rod socket to a plastic socket (consequently why many "loosen" up with use), but it’s hard to know what numbers are for what transition.
     
  22. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    My bronze bush that I had made up had a sort of rifled bore to alow for fluid/air transfer.Its been on there for about a year and the steering is perfect compared to how it was and Jh355 is right it had to be slightly oned to get it to fit but from memory it was the bush that was honed.I cant remember exactly
     
  23. Franco63

    Franco63 Guest

    The tie rods are attached to the main rack like a ball and socket joint. They are adjustable in as much that you can take up the wear by screwing the collar nut around the ball joint tighter onto the rack. It's a bit fidly because the collar and the lock nut behind it has no flats on which to put a spanner on. To make things worse, there's a dowel pin inserted between the collar and the lock nut that's been staked over when it was assembled and you need to drill out the dowel.

    The dowel pin does not go right through, it's only 7 or 8mm deep. Once you remove it you can back off the lock nut using vice grips and tighten the collar till you feel some resistance in the joint. Once I had mine adjusted I countersunk the hole around where the dowel goes, inserted a new dowel that was slightly shorter than the original and lightly tack welded it into place around the countersunk hole.

    The reason for countersinking is that you need to file the weld flat or it will interfere with the rack housing on full lock.

    No parts required !
     
  24. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

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    Maurice70,
    Rifling or offset milling the bushing is a much better way than inserting a “tube bushing”, but it's usually not done because of the extra step, and expense. While bronze works well in radial applications, it’s not a good material in linear ones, you will find the rack is now wearing instead of the bushing; also, the bronze bushing will not flex like the original plastic bushing, transferring the vibration and stress into other steering components.
     
  25. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    Craven I was led to believe that bronze was a softer metal than the hardened steel of the rack.Is this correct?
     
  26. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
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    Dec 21, 2000
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    Yes, I do know who that is.

    I'm too late for the auction, but in any case - as John points out - this kit won't work for me as I have the early-generation GT4 rack and for the chassis mounting blocks, they use a "silentbloc" type of bushing on a stud, instead of what was in the ebay kit (those red-coloured cone-shaped bushings are used on the later GT4 racks, which are also used for the rear anti-roll bar drop links).

    Hi John,

    I haven't yet taken my rack apart yet, but when I do, I will get in touch with you with what parts I need. Thanks!
     
  27. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    Peter,

    If your interested in a kit, using all factory parts to convert your "silent-block" style rack mounts to the later style mounts that use the larger "sawy bar" type bushings, please let me know. I just did this conversion on my BB...and used John's bushings instead of the factory "soft" rubber ones. The difference in rack mount rigidity is just unbelievable. The conversion is a direct bolt in, though not inexpensive. The stud mounting system that Ferrari used, IMHO, contributes substantially to that "loose steering feeling".

    Regards,
    David
     
  28. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

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    Maurice70,
    Bronze is softer than the hardened rack, but bronze has silica (i.e Silica Bronze), the silica is harder than the rack tube, and will eventually cause wear. If you have to use a press in bushing, use Delrin.

    Peter,
    is that you, how’s the 4? Will I see you on the e15th, I hope to drive the Mondi this year, lot’s of stuff to do though.
     

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