1998 550 Maranello "sorting" thread--DIY | Page 34 | FerrariChat

1998 550 Maranello "sorting" thread--DIY

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by moorfan, Aug 15, 2011.

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  1. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    All timing functions can be done in the driven direction which take up any of that dwell. Do you really think the spacer is necessary?
     
  2. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Something I have always thought about but could nothing about. I think we are "hoping" here. There is no way I can see how you could get a solid lifter in there time and get it back out without destroying the timing putting the hydraulic back in. We have to hope the residual oil in the lifter keeps the length. It bugs me we work to the last 0.001" only to carry a potential upstream error that makes all our work meaningless. I go through the motions anyway but make sure I don't get any wild results. When my timing who ha is complete I want to see those assembly marks pretty close to right on. The pros seem to be able to produce a picture or 2 of timed cars wildly off the assembly marks. I have not seen that. They have always been close for me but I don't have a pro's volume. Even when right on there is a large number of degrees that look right on well within the precision of what Ferrari appears to want us to try and achieve.
     
  3. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    Pete
    This is a tough question because I am not an engineer but let me give it a go.
    The timing method detailed by Ferrari in the WSM is a "lift at TDC" method, which means you are measuring the amount of deflection (in mm) of the hydraulic tappet's surface from its neutral position when it is touched by the camshaft. The assumption is that the lifter that is NOT being touched by a cam lobe has fully returned to it's correct neutral (rest) position. So when a lifter's cam lobe is on the base circle, and the cam lobe is NOT touching the lifter, the lifter is sitting in a rest position. That rest position is maintained by the plunger spring inside the lifter, even if the lifter is incompletely filled with oil at that instant.
    So theoretically, this should indicate that the amount of oil in a lifter should not make any difference when setting the timing, because you are not measuring valve travel to set timing, you are only measuring tappet surface travel. Of course if your lifters have incompetent check balls and leak oil under pressure, they may not transmit the proper force to the valve stem and therefore result in poor valve opening, but this is not something that impacts the actual "setting" of the timing.

    Am I correct here?
     
  4. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    Carl,
    There are a couple of well-known Ferrari mechanics who have stated to me and in other threads that this spacer is necessary to replicate the force placed on the oil chain sprocket by the harmonic damper.
    PK
     
  5. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    PK,

    I learn something new everyday.
     
  6. gsjohnson

    gsjohnson Formula 3

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    Pete-That sounds reasonable to me...probably the difference in overhead cams versus overhead valves...
     
  7. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    #832 moorfan, May 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Spent the weekend doing odds and ends, among those things pressing new cam seals (Photo 1)

    Now that everything else was done it was time to reinsert the camshafts into the heads and prepare to set the timing.
    The MSW insertion tool functioned perfectly. Installation of the cams using this tool was basically the reverse of removal. Remember, the cams must be reinstalled with the assembly marks perfectly lined up with the cam cap marks with the number 1 cylinder at TDC. (Photo 2)

    Once the tool has fully seated the cams, replacing all cam caps and washers/nuts is tedious. All nuts must be torqued to 9 Nm. Don't get lazy, this is an important part :)

    Apply the cam cogs, as you will need them in place to apply the belts. Note the motor still resting at TDC. (Photo 3)

    It isn't too particularly important that you put the dowels in yet...leaving them out will help you to manipulate the cam cogs just a bit to make sure the belts fit on correctly. Do NOT rotate the crank without the dowels in, however. Once the belts are on you can pick a dowel hole on each cog to put the dowel in, whichever one fits, and then hand tighten the cam bolts. Once all of this is done, loosen the 19mm tensioner bolts and let the tensioner snap the belt tight. I will not be formally tensioning the belts until I have already set the timing this time.
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  8. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    #833 moorfan, May 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This is the Super Bowl for me...this is what I have wanted to get as perfect as I could, even better than last time.

    Here is a detail of the Vernier gear setup. (Photo 1)

    At this point, the motor is at TDC, the cams are in, cogs are in place with dowels in, cambolts finger tight, and the belts are on with spring tension only. I now will set up a dial gauge, with the pointer touching one of the two intake tappets of cylinder one. (Photo 2)

    To time the intake cam of bank 1-6, rotate the engine in the driven direction only (clockwise) until the degree wheel is somewhere before TDC on the NON-FIRING stroke. Lets say 40-50 degrees before TDC (Photo 3). At this point the intake lobe is NOT exerting any pressure on the intake tappet and the tappet can rotate freely in its seat.

    With the engine at 40-50 degrees before TDC on the non-firing stroke, the intake and exhaust cams of bank 1-6 look like this (Photo 4)
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  9. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    #834 moorfan, May 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Once you have put the dial gauge down on the intake tappet of cylinder one with the engine at 40-50 degrees before TDC on the non-firing stroke, zero the gauge.

    Rotate the engine in the driven direction, stopping on exact TDC of the non-firing stroke. The gauge should read 0.70mm +/- .05mm. If the gauge doesn't read exactly this, the relationship of the cam to the cam cog must be altered. How you do this depends on how far off you are. If you are just a few hundredths of a millimeter off, you can just loosen the cam bolt and tap the cam lobes with a rubber mallet either advanced or retarded until your gauge reads correct. This point will be the exact timing that you want the intake cam to be set to. If you are more than a few hundredths off, you may need to remove the dowel prior to tapping the cam and moving it enough one way or the other where you would need to put the dowel in a new hole.

    Don't pat yourself on the back yet, it isn't that easy. It's easy to set the timing on the cam, but you then have to TORQUE the cam bolt in place. Torquing this damn bolt almost always shifts the cam OUT of spec. You torque it, rotate the engine over again, and discover that your cam is out of spec again. Pisses you off.
    I'm going to give away a secret, something that I discovered tonight. The way I managed to get my cam torqued exactly right was to tap the cam until the lift at TDC was 0.82mm. I selected a dowel hole, tightened the cam bolt until the dial gauge just started to move a little, and then fired the impact gun on the bolt. The end result with a torqued cam bolt was this (Photo 1)

    No matchbooks under the caps or other wierd shizz required.

    With my intake cam of 1-6 EXACTLY correct, this is what the assembly mark looks like for that cam (Photo 2)
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  10. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Look at that assembly mark! Another one that looks dead on. Isn't that amazing?


    OH BTW I do the weird shizzz and it works for me.
     
  11. gsjohnson

    gsjohnson Formula 3

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    Pete-Great information. Thanks for the hints...I'm going to need them when I reach that point. I'm waiting for another dial indicator gauge. Dropped mine and now it's dead. Stupid me...
     
  12. 360modena2003

    360modena2003 Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2009
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    Has anyone tried dry ice blasting? It is what all industries are using now -
     
  13. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
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    Pete, if you're still rigged up, and you're willing to take a few measurements, it would be really interesting to know a few things:

    First, did you set TDC on your degree wheel the Ferrari way which is as soon as the piston reaches TDC, or did you set it in the middle of the piston dwell? Not trying to start a debate, just curious which way you did it, as the method you used will affect #2 below.

    1. First measurement: How much piston dwell do you measure at TDC? (IIRC on my car it was on the order of 1.5 degrees)

    2. Second measurement: Now that you've timed the engine the Ferrari way (lift @ TDC), can you please measure where the cams' lobe centers actually fall out? I calculate the intake lobe center should be at 111 ATDC, and the exhaust should be 109 BTDC, so I'm curious to know what you see on the degree wheel?
     
  14. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    John,
    I found TDC the "Ferrari" way; at the exact point that the piston reaches TDC.

    I did not specifically measure dwell, but I would say that 1-2 degrees is about accurate.

    I can provide these other measurements if you inform me how to measure when the lobe is centerline. I assume you put a dial gauge on the tappet and figure out exactly when the gauge changes direction (similar to finding TDC) as the centerline passes?
     
  15. gsjohnson

    gsjohnson Formula 3

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    Yes I also noted there is some wiggle room at TDC. Maybe a degree or two...Hmmm...
     
  16. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
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    Pete, that's basically it, but there's some dwell on the cam lobe too, so you have to zero the indicator when the lobe is fully on the tappet. Then as you're turning the crank, note the degrees on your wheel when the lobe initially maxes out the tappet travel, and the dial indicator hits zero, then when it just starts coming off the zero. IIRC it's a little more dwell than the piston has at TDC, because the crank is turning twice as much as the cam is.

    Then you have two degree wheel readings, the difference of which represents the cam lobe dwell, so you split the two and that's the lobe center for that cam.
     
  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    You guys sure do things the hard way.
     
  18. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    We must be fun to laugh at, eh?
    :)
     
  19. gsjohnson

    gsjohnson Formula 3

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    Educate me...
     
  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    The contraption for installing the cams??

    Why bother. Do it the way Ferrari does it.


    Degree wheel? You need to strip so much out of the engine compartment and for no reason.

    Dial indicator in cyl 1 and a dial indicator on the cam. I'll have the cams timed just as well and be running the car before you have a degree wheel mounted. We are not reading degrees. We are reading TDC and valve opening.


    Harder is not better. Simple is better. Less ways to go wrong. Less minor error to stack up and cause problems.

    I also don't think it is possible to get a indicator spindle past the cam and on the follower and maintain parallelism with the follower. That's why I made long curved adaptors for the indicators. If it isn't parallel it was all for naught.
     
  21. phrogs

    phrogs F1 Veteran
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    Apr 13, 2004
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    #846 phrogs, May 5, 2015
    Last edited: May 5, 2015


    No They are failing in the V8 Cars.

    Ricambi america won't even supply the New unmarked mystery bearings from Ferrari, and Braden has showed the new Ferrari replacements are no good. He has stock of the SKS bearings.

    A replacement is needed for all of us who need this part.

    So not just a V12 problem but such a simple part being discontinued. Must not have been a big seller.
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    No.

    It makes me wonder how such complex solutions are found for such simple problems.
     
  23. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
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    Brian, we have different goals. A pro is trying to get the job done (and hopefully right) as quickly as he can.

    A DIY'er is both trying to expand his knowledge as well as get the job done, which usually results in us picking the most difficult and tortuous way possible, then doing it multiple times because it's interesting :)
     
  24. gsjohnson

    gsjohnson Formula 3

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    Makes sense to me...
     
  25. gsjohnson

    gsjohnson Formula 3

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    GS Johnson
    This is true as well...but damn it, I want to get my car on the road... :)
     

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