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1st Purchase Advice

Discussion in '360/430' started by 08bonnie, Dec 23, 2019.

  1. 08bonnie

    08bonnie Rookie

    Aug 2, 2018
    24
    Hi Guys,

    Long time lurker here. This weekend I had a look at a 2001 Rosso Corsa 360 Modena gated with 22k miles, asking price $107k. It ticks all of my boxes and I am a serious buyer. The condition of the inside is excellent, no stickies, leather is almost as-new. The test drive was so much fun and I really loved rowing through the gated box. It felt very good, much better than I had thought it would feel. The outside looks equally good, I wasn't able to spot anything that I would be concerned about. It does not have PPF nor does it have shields (which i would have liked) and no CS grills.

    As this would be my first Ferrari, I have some comments and am seeking advise. I've been through many of the Pre-Purchase threads and Sticky and found them of great use. I do have some specific questions related to this car and would be great to get some input.

    Sold by reputable Authorized Ferrari Dealer. They just sent me the invoice for the major service completed last week. While doing the service they found the left side header cracked and replaced it. They also found the rear main seal leaking oil, this was replaced as well. They also note that the engine mounts were replaced. I don't know how many mounts there are but they note that the "crank case" mounts are the ones they replaced.

    I'm waiting to hear if the right side header is factory or if that was replaced previously. If the right side is original and the left is a new factory, would this be considered a problem of any kind? What risk am I taking by running the car with the stock headers and should i ask them for the condition of the cats? I have attached pics of the car and of the exhaust. Does anyone know if the muffler stock or aftermarket? Any idea of the brand if after market?

    I'm going to speak to the tech this afternoon and ask him specifics about the brakes and clutch also. I did download the main PPI checklist so I will go over that with them. And finally, the BIG QUESTION -> they say they have many service documents available. Assuming they do, and that they just went through the car for the Major, should I still get an independent PPI?

    Comments and advise much appreciated!

    Thanks!
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  3. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    15,360
    doesnt look like an oem exhaust to me - also doesnt look familiar. if you dont have a relationship with the dealer i wld def get an independent PPI. i can't imagine they wld have used a different header on the right side. replacing the headers with tubi or capristio is worthwhile, at least on the 355 and 430 it is. the 360 needs an aftermarket exhaust so i wld plan on getting a capristo or tubi as well.

    looks like a great car - does it have a challenge grill? if not ask the stealer to throw one in.

    also where are you located? someone here can recommend a PPI.
     
  4. 08bonnie

    08bonnie Rookie

    Aug 2, 2018
    24
    Spoke to the tech that has worked on this car for the last 3 years and took some notes below. Comments, concerns and suggestions are welcome :>

    He confirmed that the left side exhaust manifold was replaced with an original. The car now has both original manifolds. He said that he has not heard of 360's eating their pre-cats and that that was more of a 430 problem. He inspected the right side header and said it looked fine. He does not know the brand of the muffler.
    He said he checked the clutch and didn't notice any unusual wear or signs of overheating. He doesn't think it is the original clutch but they don't have any proof that it was changed.
    He said he was surprised that the rear main seal was leaking. Upon inspection he said that it was obvious it was replaced in the past and probably the work was not done correctly.
    The brakes were changed by the dealership in November 2017 and he said they easily have more than 50% life remaining. They don't have any paperwork going back further than when they started servicing the car 3 years ago.
    I'm local to them so I will be picking up the service records to review the work that was done. He said they have pages and pages of service history.

    I don't know if I should be glad the car has had lots of service or concerned. Does anyone know of a good Ferrari indy in Tampa Bay that could do a PPI on this car?

    TIA!
     
  5. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    May 25, 2019
    823
    Memphis, TN
    Full Name:
    John
    I suggest checking the alarm module. Is the red led on the switch panel blinking all the time except when the car is running, and then on constantly? If so, then the alarm module has likely died and needs replacing. Do the doors lock and unlock with the remote?
     
  6. 08bonnie

    08bonnie Rookie

    Aug 2, 2018
    24
    In Tampa Bay, thanks for your input.
     
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  8. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula 3
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    Jun 20, 2017
    1,249
    Melbourne Florida
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    KGC
    You'd be smart to review all the records carefully. Be sure that they are actual repairs done and not estimates of proposed work. I found some of that with my car when I went through the docs.
    IMO, I wouldn't be worried about "too many" service records-- depending on what was done. Some folks will bring their car in for a faulty light bulb.

    Probably important to see that the variators were done as a factory "recall". Most likely were but I would check to be sure. Trans mount should also be updated. The stick will alleviate the posibility of issues with the car that the F1 cars have been known to have--- However knock on wood, my F1 has been trouble free and flawless in my '03 for over two years now since I bought it with just about the same mileage as the car you are considering. PPI is probably a must but it won't catch everything. Things can simply go wrong even with a great car that passes with flying colors.

    And I agree on the exhaust. Not one I recognize. But others here are more of an expert than I on that stuff. Don't forget to check and see when the timing belts were last done. I don't like to let mine go for more than 3 years but there are those here who have let them go way longer than that. I just can't bring myself to gamble on a engine like that.

    I'd negotiate all the fluids to be done if you can't find any evidence that it has been done for years. Coolant, trans, clutch fluid, and brake fluid all have a life expectancy.

    Good luck. It looks like a really nice car. You won't be sorry once you pull the trigger.
     
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  9. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    15,360
    Very exciting - looks like a nice car!!!!
     
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  10. 08bonnie

    08bonnie Rookie

    Aug 2, 2018
    24
    The Ferrari dealer just completed the major service including the main seal and header replacement, they showed me the $17,000 service invoice, ouch! But eh Major included replaced engine oil and filter, cabin pollen filter, engine air filters, transmission oil, brake fluid flush with clutch circuit, engine coolant, timing belts and tensioners and bearing, replaced all 3 accessory belts. Replaced engine mounts as well. They were not able to confirm clutch % remaining but the tech said it looked good. I'm hoping to get more info tomorrow when I pick-up the rest of the service history.

    Regarding pricing -> The ask is $107k, what would a reasonable offer look like? Is the 1st year service an item that they might include in the deal? Car has been at their dealership for a couple of weeks and on the market for a couple of days.

    Thanks.
     
  11. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    15,360
    There is a 360 stick market price thread - have you read it? I’d offer 90k and start from there.
     
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  13. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    549
    San Antonio, TX
    Full Name:
    Hans
    They’re asking a really high price for the car, Usually around the 10,000 mileage mark gated 360s are at around $100 K.
    Are you budgeted for repairs at that price? 10 to 20% of the car value in the bank for repairs it’s probably not a bad idea.

    At the $100k price point I’d absolutely research and find a good independent PPI
     
  14. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    15,360
    75 to 80k gets u a 40k mikes stick spider. 85k wld be a great deal I think but I haven’t personally bought a coupe in a while. My friend sold an 03 5k mike stick spider for like 115k 3 years ago and that was the top.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  15. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula 3
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    Jun 20, 2017
    1,249
    Melbourne Florida
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    KGC
    I'd agree with ttforcefed. I'd start with an offer of $90K. But if it's the car you want... well then it's really what you feel comfortable with. Also good advice is to have at least $10K to $15K in the bank that you can live without--- just in case. These 360s, both the F1 but especially the stick cars, are really good cars. But the truth is all used exotics don't have to have a major problem to cost you a major bill.
    After all look at the bill you quoted the dealer showed you --- $17K!

    I'd wait until you have the PPI done and then negotiate from there once you determine if there is anything that car needs or may need soon. I doubt that the dealer will go for a year of service with the deal but you never know. Probably giving the asking price may convince them, but would that be worth it to you to give up the additional money as opposed to savings going in on the car at the onset? Probably peace of mind that you really don't need.
    If the PPI checks out you probably will have a carefree first year. These 360s are really that reliable. Do you plan on driving the car a lot or just as a pleasure car? As a pleasure car (2 to 3x a week on the road) first year of service will most likely be nill. Of course anything can happen but don't think about that ;) That's life with or without a Ferrari!
     
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  16. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    10,525
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Quote: He said that he has not heard of 360's eating their pre-cats and that that was more of a 430 problem.
    He is lying. Or he is not a good 360 Tech.

    Quote: He said he checked the clutch and didn't notice any unusual wear or signs of overheating. He doesn't think it is the original clutch but they don't have any proof that it was changed.
    He should have pulled out the caliper and measured the thickness of the clutch plate. It would have taken 2 minutes.

    Quote: He said they have pages and pages of service history.
    This is not something to be happy about if within 3 years they have reams of service records for a 20K miles car. But, this is a Ferrari so … it cuts both ways. Great to have records, but you too can have reams of service records in the next 3 years.

    I would start at 90K, stop at 95K and absolutely walk at 100K
     
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  17. 08bonnie

    08bonnie Rookie

    Aug 2, 2018
    24
    If the car is not a nightmare I plan to keep it 2-3 years. It would be a weekend car and I will probably put 2-3k miles on per year. Let's say we agree on a price of 90-94k, it looks like I'll have to remove the stock headers and replace with something like Fabspeed. Their site quotes about $3k for headers with some sort of spacer that prevents the CEL. Add $1500 for install (8 - 10 hours apparently) and I'm approaching $100k in the car. But if that eliminates the risk of major engine damage then it would be worth it. The car has 4 cats, am I right that only the pre-cats can cause the engine problems, not the other (inline?) cats? And what if I just drive it until the other one cracks and then just replace both? Is that a reasonable approach or am I risking destroying the motor?

    Heading over to the dealer tomorrow to pour through the documents they have. Like you said, I too could have 100 pages of service records in 3 years. Funny thing, my 991.1s was at the shop 1 time in the 3 years I owned it. Yeah, I know, but it's not a Ferrari. Maybe I'm being overly dramatic but the more I research these older Fcars the more they seem like a ticking time bomb....the dealer invoices thousands for small stuff, like it's all just business as usual.
     
  18. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
    10,525
    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    #15 yelcab, Dec 23, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2019
    When you have done the Fabspeed switch, you will enter the world of never ending CEL with very little hope of getting out. Don't say I did not warn you (like that Taylor Swift song). There is a thread right now that starts with .. "This is ****ing hell" because the owner did just that.

    There are SIX cats in the 360: two precats in the headers, two mini cats in the front of the cats, and two main cats in the rear of the cats. They are prone with issues and they are $13,000 a set. Save up your money.

    As far as Porsche vs Ferrari. Porsche makes great cars (I own two), but they will never reach that emotional part of you that make you go giddy when you drive it. It rarely makes me turn back to look when I walk away. The Ferraris and the Ducati do that to me.

    When you enter a curve with a Ferrari engine screaming behind you at 5,000 RPM, rev match and drop one gear to a 6,500 rpm engine, crank the steering wheel at the apex, smash the throttle to 7,500 rpm as you exit the turn, it makes you howl like a kid that you are.
     
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  19. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    10,525
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    [QUOTE="08bonnie, post: 146960118, member: 219359"...the dealer invoices thousands for small stuff, like it's all just business as usual.[/QUOTE]
    yes, it is business as usual. Really, it is with Ferraris.
     
  20. 08bonnie

    08bonnie Rookie

    Aug 2, 2018
    24
     
  21. andy308

    andy308 Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2005
    1,920
    Cumming, GA
    Full Name:
    Andy
    I am just one data point but at my last major service (1 year ago) the precats in my 2002 360 were beginning to come apart. I went with Fabspeed headers (no precats) and Fabspeed 200 cell cats (kept the stock exhaust), have not had any CEL lights and passed emissions with flying colors. Ron Reineke at Sports Car Service in Tucker, GA did the work. Very happy with the results. Just an FYI.

    Might want to mention where you are located.
     
  22. hwyman

    hwyman Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2015
    255
    Canada / Los Angeles
    Make sure suspension bushings are ok, shocks aren't leaking, all the buttons work, AC blows cold, engine cooling works well, alignment, door handles aren't stiff, tires are fresh and not expired. Make sure car has the three key fobs, no oil leaks from steering, gearbox and engine. If they could run a compression check would be perfect. Otherwise it looks pretty solid. Its a 20yo Ferrari, so don't expect a 997TT reliability. Even with all your due diligence AC compressors can fail, clutch throw out bearings, hoses, modules etc... Keep 15k in a maintenance fund lol for those unexpected repairs
    PS quick check on clutch, put it in 5th or 6th gear at low rpm and floor the gas, if it slips clutch is getting weak.. not a fool proof check but an indicator
     
  23. 08bonnie

    08bonnie Rookie

    Aug 2, 2018
    24
    Thanks for your input - we could not agree on price as they wouldn't come off their ask.

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  24. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    May 25, 2019
    823
    Memphis, TN
    Full Name:
    John
    Don't get all wrapped up in the purchase price. If the car is in g
    I suggest you forget about the price for a minute. Was the car everything you wanted? Is the dealer reputable and can you see yourself taking the car back there for service? Do you see any other cars you'd like in place of this one for a better price?

    Purchase price is just the entrance fee. Don't get too wrapped up in that.
     
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  25. 08bonnie

    08bonnie Rookie

    Aug 2, 2018
    24
    No viable or better alternatives currently. It's local, good service history, right colors, gated, recent major and an authorized dealer. But who pays full ask? They would probably knock a couple grand off if I ask nicely.

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  26. 8202632

    8202632 Karting
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    Jul 9, 2017
    103
    Memphis, TN
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    CDC
    Honestly if this car is calling your name and it checks all the boxes, don’t lose it for a few grand. Prices vary widely based on location, supply/demand, color, options, etc. I think most folks are willing to pay more if they find exactly what they want. It’s really hard to compare a typical car purchase with a 20 year old Ferrari. I’m at peace with what I paid for mine bc it was what I wanted. Just my 2 cents.
     
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  27. SGM

    SGM F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Sep 27, 2006
    2,646
    Northern VA
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    Steve
    Have you considered the red/black 360 in the classified section? Looks like a well sorted car for about 20k less than the one you posted here.
     
  28. spider348

    spider348 Formula 3
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    Nov 3, 2003
    1,169
    MA
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    John
    My recommendation. Call Sarasota Italian Garage. David Feinberg 603-493-1696. Big loss when David moved from the cold Northeast to sunny Sarasota!
    Experienced Tech. Straight Shooter.
     
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