2002 360 Spider value

Screw the Gallardo.

A diehard Lamborghini driver has a Countach !

 

number on an 02 spider with 800 miles. Unless it was Danny Heatley's rebuilt spider or a green car with a red interior I find this very hard to believe. If a 2003 with 1700 miles traded hands a month ago at Manheim (last resort for most dealers) for $203K in Florida I find it really hard to believe no dealer, including the Lamborghini dealer would put more than $150K into it. Even the Ferrari dealer would have bought it back for more. Here is the Manheim sale if you don't believe me.

12/19/2003 W PALM $ 203,000 1,748 RED 8G 6 X SE

Like the other poster said, I'm not sure which move makes your friend more of an idiot, selling his car for $40-$50K under what it's worth or buying a car that instantly worth $20K less after 1000 miles. For what it's worth, I was offered two Gallardos in December at list on the ground when I was calling on Murcielagos.

Allan, tell me what the most requested brand on Internet search engines was for 2003...I'll give you a hint, it wasn't Lamborghini.

 

There's also the issue of the gearing. The Gallardo's 1st felt way too tall for me. The Murcie's box felt better. The other problem for me is the footbox on the Gallardo which puts your feet too far forward of the front axle in the event of a crash. It reminded me of a P 917 which is a bit of a widowmaker. Another issue is 4wd. I understand why they do it esp. in todays litigatious times but I think both would be more fun if they were like the Enzo rwd with traction control to keep most from getting killed but with an off setting for those who can handle it. These cars can get scary fast. My wife's turbo Cayanne with traction control off is a handfull/tire smoker and the Enzo I drove when I tried "race mode" got to the limit very quickly. I think the Murcie GTR will be worth waiting for this reason. My race cars have similar hp/lb some even more but because of the much wider tires (the P4) has 11F 15R aren't as violent.

 

Hello Jim and Allan,

Lots of points were made on a lot of cars. As far as the Lamborghinis, do what Jim, Allan, and others have done; drive them and drive them a lot and formulate your own opinions. The right car for them might very well the be the wrong car for you. The one undeniable fact is that the Lamborghinis are a lot of fun and absolutely brutal in performance. On paper, behind the wheel, etc just plain faster than the Ferrari lineup barring the fantastic Enzo. The Gallardo being a 500 hp Audi TT? I think not. If Audi TT's handled like that and I'd get one right now. Yes I've driven one. This kind of comment just plain tests one's credibility although I respect one's opinions as their own. The cars are so different in feel and drive that I can't imagine how this can be one's conclusion.

Avia1's post is a perfect indication of why I chose not to post here. Apologies if I lacked the flair for drama to post a "This is my final post here" thread. That kind of stuff is unnecessary at best. It is not supportive of the community at large and my ego does not need any massaging.

To make matters clear. I did purchase the car. Allan's numbers are correct. The car was never wrecked and I know this as fact since I purchased it from a friend of mine. He is indeed getting a Gallardo and he is in fact so disappointed with the comparative 360 performance he didn't want to even see it in his garage anymore (as Allan alluded earlier). The car is also for my wife. The car is also being serviced in Pinnacle Motorsports even though it is still under warranty. If picture proof is what you need feel free to call JR Vallandingham as I have given him permission to divulge the owner of the car. Or feel free to visit his site in the tech section (I won't post the actual address as I think it is banned). Even when posting in his own board he politely refrained from using my name. Respect of privacy is very important to me. I am not mad at Jim or Allan for bringing this up since their intentions were not malicious and since I trust their judgement. Jim has been of invaluable help in a current project I'm undergoing as far as offering non BS non self serving advice. Allan, as much as some of you may dislike him, has also been a tremendous asset in keeping me informed of similar failures or successes of what I'm trying to accomplish.

It has taken me some time to read this thread due to it's length. There is way too much stuff to address with a single post so I will just mention things which I have a say in.

Avia1 and others. For you to call my friend an "idiot" or "not the smartest bloke" is completely out of line. You have never had the privilege of meeting the man and he is without a doubt one of the most personable people I have the luxury of calling my friend. When all the arguments and car bragging is done we used to blast around our cars and enjoy each other's and our other friends's company. Selling the car for less than what YOU feel is the market value is simply a matter of choice and thankfully, a choice that doesn't concern you or even your input. He can do as he pleases with his possessions. He was a motivated seller and although I was not a motivated buyer, my wife pushed me over the edge. He can't be too stupid if he can afford the other exotica in his garage. This is a guy who has given me the keys to his house and his cars to take them to the track. F40 inclusive. I just never had the balls to do it. I am no track star and a car like that far exceeds my abilities. As kind of an offer as this is, I refuse because it would be selfish of me to capitalize on this sort of offer when I am so obviously underqualified to navigate a track at speed. The 360 was for all intents and purposes his beater car, hence the low miles since he was never really inspired to drive it much. Even when put on rotation given the amount of cars he has he would never put too many miles on it anyway. And a beater it will remain as it will go to my wife as her daily driver.

Driving impressions about the 360 vs. the Gallardo...You know what, it really isn't even worth it because the ass kicking is so apparent. Buy the cars for your own reasons, but don't fault the Gallardo for being good at what it does. Nobody said this car was meant to have the prettiest interior.

I was told of this thread by a couple of people and I feel compelled to finally post because my friend's dignity is being tested. Throw all the numbers you want. And shake your heads in disbelief all you want but the truth of the matter is the car was bought for what Allan posted. Jim has been predicting this fall for months on end and I am happily reporting that he was spot on. I am in fact surprised at the reactions since the warning was out there months before. As a matter of fact, even Allan was mentioning this. Choose to ignore it if you will, but if I were in the market for a 360 I would pay careful attention to what these two have to say. It is to your benefit. I listened and I capitalized by placing the right offer with their inputs in this board and others. I would post another site where I got a lot of valuable information offline that helped me save a fair amount of money by buying smart, but it isn't allowed.

For all of you naysayers, feel free to stop by Pinnacle Motorsports in Houston, where the car currently is. Politely ask to see my 360 and JR will happily oblige if he has nothing going on at the time and he will even tell you about inherent design flaws and the general characteristics of the car. He really knows what he is talking about and any enthusiast or potential buyer is best served to consult him. No BS, no self serving diatribe. Far better than the dealer. In Ferrari's defense, this is no surprise as the Lamborghini dealer was equally as worthless when my Murcielago needed attention. The car will not stay here long as it is nearing completion. I may even take it for a spin tomorrow and get it detailed somewhere in town. Once complete I may keep it for a bit or ship it to California right away.

HenryK,

I completely sympathize! I want to get a vintage Porsche for some REAL fun and ownership involvement.

With the inherent detatchment an internet forum presents, basic courtesies have gone the wayside and unacceptable behavior has become the norm. Quite frankly it does not have to be that way and I chose not to subject myself to this behavior. There are a lot of great users in this forum but the bad have been far outweighing the good. If I had the opportunity to single out those whose opinions I hold in very high regard I would remain here and enjoy myself. Since that is not possible I chose to contribute or frequent sites that are conducive to helping each other and enjoying each other's accomplishments as we live vicariously through each other.

Jim, I was actually planning on calling you about a completely unrelated subject. Hope this post was not too abrasive. If it was I apologize but I feel very strongly about the contect and would be selling myself short by keeping mum. Even if my friend's name has remained anonymous.

Cheers

 

Allan,

Please signed me up with the program. Yes I would like the opportunity to buy spiders for 150K and make 50K in profit. Could I get a car monthly?

AW

 

Forgot to add. The car is Red/Tan. So definitely not an off color.

Cheers

 

put the money in escrow and show Allan the finalized paperwork and you may be allowed to learn the right way to buy used cars!

excuses not accepted.

N

 

The Gallardo's gearing is tall as hell. Amazing to think that you could downshift into 2nd on the freeway and hit nearly 100MPH (98MPH to be exact) before having to shift to 3rd.

The only legitimate complaints about the Gallardo come down to feel, I disregard the nonsense negative posts about its interior and exterior designs. God forbid Ferrari actually offered dual zone climate control, f-chatters would faint with excitement, but on a Lambo it's a bad "Audi" thing. Right.

To some people the Gallardo feels heavier and less connected to the driver versus a 360. But a 2WD SV version that's lighter could go a long way towards eliminating the issues you had with the car Napolis. I'm hopeful they go that route sometime over the next 24 months, hopefully Ferrari will bring out a refreshed 360 Evo or whatever to motivate Audi's brass to do exactly that.

 

Stickanddice - Congratulations on your new car. But with all due respect, you claim that it is because of Avia1 type posts that you are no longer here. And then you go on to say what a nice guy Allan is. Seems a little strange to me. Allan may be the nicest guy in the world but his posts in general are far more abrasive than 99.9% of posts on this forum. But that's OK - I for one enjoy them - but he is so abrasive that you almost cant take him that seriously. He obviously knows cars although is massively biased.

As to your friend. The fact that he was kind enough to sell you a great car at $40K under market is a kind gesture. I am sure he's a great guy. You appear to be good friends. And I am sure that he is no fool. However, that does not mean that this is suddenly the price that 360 spiders are regularly trading at. Or that this is reflective of the current market. If I sell my sister my house at $400K under market - does that reflect the "real" market? Hell no. We all know that once in a while there are deals out there (witness Allan's uncle) or if you are very well connected (a la James) you can get a 360 at MSRP. But for 99% of the people out there, you cant. That is not the case with the Gallardo. Maybe they are flooding the market - I dont know exact production numbers but it would be interesting to know how many 360's are sold into the USA vs. Gallardo's. Nontheless, Gallardo's are much easier to buy at MSRP.

But to re-read this thread. Allan took glee from the fact that one 360 Spider sold under market, baited everyone into responding and then proclaimed that this is where the market is. If everyone, were thin skinned and offended, there would be no-one left on this forum. You have to take the good with the bad - its the internet.

Now James and Allan may predict that the market for 360's is going to go down. I would agree - 5 year old model, replacement coming, various other cars in its price range. I think you would have to be obstinate to think that market would not drop. But in general, it may be moving lower but at a slow pace. It is far from droppoing fast at the present time. Believe me I would be thrilled if it were much lower as I am in the market.

Cheers

 

I'll let her rip -

buddy sells buddy car under market

good rip -

 

Taek
Best to you and yours. (Pls. re email me your email address. When I tried to return email it bounced back for some reason. Maybe because I attatched too many pics)
Cheers!

 

Buddy sold Buddy a car and got a good deal. I'm in the business of buying and selling these cars and for you to say that the market has dropped off by more than $50K of what it was 1 month ago is not true.

The numbers at Manheim don't lie nor do the dozens of people on this site on the list for 360 spiders or actively looking. If this is a small slice of the people actively waiting for cars, I'm sure your friends 02 spider would have been put in front of a couple of the people waiting by dealers.

The 360 spider is not even in the same market as a Gallardo. When somebody is looking for a drop top Ferrari, they don't suddenly switch to a Gallardo. Right now the only immediate competitor to a 360 spider is a 911 Turbo Cab and that's still a different car buyer. So please explain to me why the 360 spider is going to take a huge drop in value. What's the direct competition - DB9 volante = no, Bentley GT = no, SL55 = in a staight line but no where else, etc...

I think the Gallardo is an awesome car as well and equal to a Ferrari or better but most of the tests and actual drives in the car have produced an experience where the Gallardo is less visceral and exciting. It's very competent but, maybe its the V10 engine with a boring exhaust note or the Egear that's not as good as the F1. Ferrari is a Ferrari, Lamborghini a Lamborghini, in the past very different buyers. With the Gallardo, VW is trying to change this.

 

This thread and fchat lately has turned into a drama-sopa-opera....

 

It sure seems that way.

 

Proof is in the pudding. Since he's your uncle and no one believes you, post a picture of the sales contract identifying the car and the price (including tax). This would be a great way to back up your claim and put this whole issue to rest.

 

Excellent post. Very logical.

 

Taek, glad to see you back. And yes, the flaming comes and goes on F-Chat. Seems to be the way of the Internet. However, I must say that your buddy Alan gets a kick out of throwing matches into gas cans. Then he acts surprised when they blow up.

Take care and come on back now, ya hear!

Dale

 

Thanks guys. I will enjoy the car for a bit and I'm sure my wife will like it. A convertible was sorely missed in the household.

Rodsky,

When I offered my price it was based on what I had inferred from previous posts from Jim and from speaking offline with other people in other chats. Allan is correct. I offered higher than some other people had offered him but low enough to secure a good deal. He is a friend. I treated him fairly. If he thought the deal was not fair, he would have not sold it to me and would have done so to somebody else. Make no mistake. This is not a friend doing a friend a favor. It was a motivated seller and I shot out the right figure. When doing money transactions we put friendship aside and deal business. That way, if things don't pan out, we are still friends.

I did mention that I didn't quite read the entire thread...On retrospect you are right about Allan. This ****storm has in part started by Allan, although comments of stupid behavior I'm sure didn't help things. I don't know if you remember, but I think you were around when I used to actively post. I didn't particularly get along with Allan either. As a matter of fact, I think there were even instances when I insulted his behavior. Being a Lamborghini fan was TOUGH work back then. I clearly remember people ripping the Murcielago on a daily basis, much like the Gallardo treatment right now. As a Murcielago owner it was hardly fun. I am actually surprised to see a little respect for these cars now. I remember standing up for this car used to be like pissing against the wind. One thing about Allan though. I started conversing with him offline about some car related stuff when one day he contacted me kind of out of the blue. He has been a great help and an asset once all this BS facade is done. Now not listening to Jim, that's no excuse. The man is a class act through and through; online, offline, inline, or whatever.

Avia1,

360 Spider owners not in the market for a Gallardo? That is probably not only untrue but a bit baffling. I am now a 360 owner and I am in the market for a Gallardo. My friend falls in these shoes also. If you refuse to believe it, again, that is your prerogative. My initial post was meant to address that maybe instead of disagreeing some should just listen and if anything ask how they can accomplish the same. And contrary to what Rodsky has pointed out, although Jim is heavily connected, he has repeatedly helped people by saying "mention my name" knowing full well you will get preferential treatment, or by posting deals that anyone can benefit from.

About posting paperwork. Allan, of all people, once was challenged to do this and he went ahead and posted a title to his Diablo. Ridicule ensued. You really can't win. I personally believe him because knowing him for over a year now he has consistently proven to be truthful when it comes to what cars he has, or what cars his friends have. No need for a background check. If you doubt what I have or have gotten then too bad.

Manheim doesn't mean anythying to me because that isn't where I bought my car.

Amenasce,

Sorry for the drama, but maybe when I rip on a friend of yours you'll sit on the side and ignore things? I think that my post, if viewed with a level head, as most so far have, can only benefit the board. You are right about one thing I forgot to mention. Pictures of the car can also be found in Kenny Herman's site www.ExoticCarForums.com.

Dale,

Flames don't have to be a reality in the internet because they can be extinguished as soon as it begins. Allan does get a kick out of enciting argument. But I do believe that at the end of the day its all in good fun. Some have already said in this post and others that they feel its funny. I have to agree. The fights are so ridiculous and the answers from both parties so creative one has to laugh. I think those who engage him are also having a laugh for the most part. I would say that there really is no place for this sort of thing in a serious Ferrari site, but c'mon. I was browsing around today after a long hiatus and some of those off topic posts are waaaaay out there. Enzo vs. Trophy wife? I wouldn't touch that one with a ten foot pole and gloves. Then someone mentioned one about someone who posted a picture of his girlfriend and asked if users thought she was hot? I mean, really. On a more benign note, look at Bruce's post of gibberish. If looked at with seriousness then its a ridiculous post. But if you look at it knowing Bruce to be a fun loving guy, then its funny. Don't get me wrong, it's no excuse in my book, but please remember Allan's first post was a polite introduction made by a thoughtful soon to be contributor. Being a Lamborghini fan/owner on this site was not an easy thing as recently as a few months back. I'm sure that instead of just leaving Allan decided to have fun by biting back. We've gotten so calloused by the fighting that now some of us can point and laugh.

Jim,

I'll call you when I get out of the house. Hotmail is really annoying about email sizes.

Cheers

 

Stickandice - I certainly do remember you. I happen to like Lambo's. To some degree I think that Allan being abrasive and slamming Ferrari's causes the F guys to get their backs up - which means we have a childish "my dad is bigger than your dad" conversation. I would love it if we could talk about the merits (or demerits) of each marque in a civilized fashion. That way I would learn more about both cars. I think some people slam Lambo's just to get back at Allan - not because they dislike Lambo's.

Clearly this is a Ferrari site so you would think it would be natural for there to be more passion towards Ferrari's. However, look at some polls recently where the Ferrari lost (Murci vs 575 and McLaren vs. F1). I would submit that there are a lot of objective folks on this site.

Anyway, I still maintain that you got a good deal. Good for you. I dont know all the circumstances but this price is lower than the trades that I am seeing. As you said, the seller was motivated. Congrats and enjoy it in good health.

As for James, I agree. I dont know him. But he seems to be class all the way. I enjoy reading his posts and listen to what he says. All, I said was that he is obviously well connected and to some degree - he is not reflective of the average market. He can get deals the rest of us cant.

 

E gear is way better than F1, even though it is essentially the same set up from the same supplier. In practice, there is world of difference and the Gallardo just simply shifts better, creeps better, and the E gear is easier to adapt to (or is it that e gear adapts better to throttle imput at low speed).

 

No, I can say I really dont like the Gallardo (I dont hate it, but certainly don't like it). I think the Murci is awesome. It takes over 4 times longer to build and is made of much more exquisite materials. The engine is specific for that car. It is, crazily, much better value for money. The Gallardo is overpriced. That is really the issue here. It may be a great car, but its well overpriced. At circa £85K to £95K GBP it is worth considering. 996TT money, otherwise, the 996TT does everything it does, cheaper. I think it looks better too.

Used Murcielagos are too close for anyone to put their money into a Gallardo. £20K GBP more and you'll have one of the finest cars on the planet. As Allan says, only size would dictate a purchase of Gallardo over the Murcielago.

But honestly the styling really is not similar enough to the Murci for it to be impossible to like one and not the other. I've seen plenty drive past now, and I'm glad I never stuck my money in one. They do look better at night in black, as the xenons and wideness makes it look less like a Celica.

But having owned an 03 plate 360 spider now for 4 months, I've still been offered similar money to what I paid to sell it, but I think that's because Black is very much in demand here in the UK. I can also comment, that apart from the direct steering feel, and nimble feeling chassis, its not really that accomplished a car. It feels fun because it feels like its going to lose it any moment. I hope the replacement is better.