2010 997 Turbo 0-60 in 3 seconds! | Page 2 | FerrariChat

2010 997 Turbo 0-60 in 3 seconds!

Discussion in 'Porsche' started by Ferrarista3, Dec 21, 2009.

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  1. Scotty

    Scotty F1 Veteran
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    Oct 31, 2003
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    Agreed--I don't get this. My time with dual clutch gearboxes suggests that they are as aggressive (or almost as aggressive) as F1's at full throttle, but they are much more livable at low speeds, going slow up inclines, creeping in traffic, and in auto mode. I don't see how "better" equals "less involving".
     
  2. Ferrarista3

    Ferrarista3 F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2007
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    #27 Ferrarista3, Dec 26, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2009
    I drove Porsche's PDK (on a Carrera 4S and a Panamera Turbo) as well as the California's DCT and just found these transmissions to be extremely good but somewhat boring. The DCT probably fitted quite nicely with these cars, but I'm not sure if I'd enjoy it in something a little more fun or exotic (like a 599/430/Gallardo etc.). Allow me to try to explain...

    With F-1 type transmissions you have to modulate the throttle and time your shifts for perfectly smooth gear changing and, for instance, on the 599 you feel this small kick in backside when changing gear under full throttle...and I really like it. There's a certain sense of mechanical interaction on F1 transmissions which is missing in DCTs. With these DCTs, it's almost too refined...too sanitized. They require no driver input (other than pulling a paddle) and IMO lack the F1's sense of mechanical "authenticity."

    Here's another thread which discusses this issue--> http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=258724

    It's obviously very subjective, but from my experience, I enjoy the newer F1 transmissions more than the DCTs...at least on fun cars. In fact, I remember reading that Lambo decided not to use the DCT on the facelifted Gallardo for this very reason.

    I know that someone will say that if you want the ultimate mechanical involvement, you might as well get a manual. That is true to a certain extent, but IMO it's not always so black and white. A car like the 599 *needs* a paddle-shifter if you want to drive it hard simply because keeping your two hands on the steering wheel (and not worrying about the clutch/stick) all the time is huge bonus. However, the F1 system still provides that mechanical enjoyment which is lacking in DCTs IMO.

    They are faster, but you don't even feel the smallest of power gaps during shifts. I actually enjoy that small kick back when shfiting F1s under full throttle which is lacking in DTCs. They are excellent from a performance POV...but they just leave me a bit cold. As I said, this is all very personal. Many will not care about the throttle modulation or the aggressive shifts and thus will love the DCT from every point of view.
     
  3. rossocorsa13

    rossocorsa13 F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2006
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    0-60 mph in 3 seconds absent the grins that should have both been on both their faces is about as worthless as a non-driven Ferrari.

    Cool, but bland.

    :)
     
  4. CharlesE

    CharlesE Formula 3

    Nov 19, 2007
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    maybe they have done it so may times it has gotten old for them.
     
  5. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 26, 2005
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    Thanks for the detailed and well written explanation.

    The question that still lingers is whether the "partial automation" of the F1 system (i.e., no rev matching) is simply the older incarnation of the dual-clutch (PDK, DSG, etc.) systems before the Germans came up with the missing piece to the puzzle.

    In other words, are dual-clutch gearboxes going to replace the older F1 style entirely? It is possible that Lambo didn't go with a DCT on the Gallardo because it is near the end of its life cycle, and it would make more sense to make major technological changes with its replacement.

    I certainly see a place for both paddle shift and manual gearbox sports cars for some time to come, with the manual being most appropriate for vintage cars where the 0-60 numbers are no longer the main selling point -- you drive a Daytona because it's a Daytona, not because you want to win the stoplight race against the Nissan Z.

    But, given that you, I and Michael Schumacher cannot do any better than Porsche's or Audi's computers when it comes to executing a perfect gear change, and given that the system is basically electronic anyway, I would think a DCT would simply be better. But that's the minor point.

    Philosophically, this leaves me with a huge disconnect.

    Why should a modern, two passenger car like a 599 not be as fast as a 997 Turbo? With 12 cylinders versus six? And for double the price? The "driver involvement" argument makes perfect sense with something old, like a Daytona, 250 GT, TR or 328, but with two cars that are basically big rolling microprocessors anyway I'm not convinced. I think Ferrari has some explaining to do.

    In other words, any of the paddle shift systems give away 90 percent of the physical involvement of a manual gearbox. Once you have made that trade, and taken on the complication of these systems, I don't see where modulating the throttle is going to compensate.

    And I really don't see how Ferrari can justify its most expensive, modern car not being as fast as it could have been.
     
  6. Fpassion

    Fpassion Formula Junior

    Jun 1, 2005
    599
    FYI

    "The Porsche-Doppelkupplungsgetriebe name dates from 1983, when the first experimental version was developed and used in a 956 Series-produced endurance race car. A 956 with the experimental gearbox won a German national championship race, and a couple of years later a 962, the 956's descendant, equipped with the gearbox won an international championship race at Monza, in Italy. " The PDK is essentially two gearboxes in one, each with its own clutch. They work alternately and sequentially, with the next gear in sequence engaged when the first is selected.

    In automatic mode, the PDK is difficult if not impossible to distinguish from a Tiptronic.
     
  7. fiorano94

    fiorano94 F1 Veteran

    May 26, 2006
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    PDK makes that one of the most boring 0-60s ever IMO. It seems to lack a lot of soul.
     
  8. Ferrarista3

    Ferrarista3 F1 Rookie

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    #33 Ferrarista3, Dec 28, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2009
    The 599 was introduced in 2006 . Its replacement will almost certainly have a DCT (and probably a hybrid system).

    The PDK Turbo is slightly faster to 60 (by 0.2 seconds)...but after 60, the 599 is still MUCH faster.

    I perfectly understand what you are saying. Modern cars are more about performance than interaction and once you start putting paddle shifters, you might as well put the fastest one available. It's hard to argue with that.

    I just personally feel that the 599's F1-Superfast hit a sweet-spot just because I love the way it allows you to keep both hands on the wheel, change gears extremely fast and yet, still have a certain sense of mechanical interaction. It's just my very personal and biased view.

    That being said, I'm sure that the world will move on and that DTCs will be equipped on the vast majority of sports cars until the next new piece of technology comes along.
     
  9. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Well, that's what counts is how much you enjoy the car. It's all about personal satisfaction from driving, because none of us are making a living as professional racers. But I think it's true that dual clutch has emerged as the new benchmark. Sadly, the engineering direction continues to be to incorporate as much computer control as possible, which has fundamentally changed the art of driving.

    I would like to always have a pure manual gearbox-equipped two seater in one side of the garage, and whatever is new and modern in the other. I enjoy the contrast, and for daily driving in California traffic there are times when an automatic mode is very welcome.
     
  10. Michael B

    Michael B F1 Rookie
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    Not trying to be argumentative here...

    But what is a manufacture supposed to do?

    You "enthusiasts" clamor for "faster, better, make me look like I am a driver/superstar" and when they do (new 997tt etc.) you say "its too easy, no involvement, I like a manual"...

    Yup the new cars are fast, and hell yes I think its great. I admire them and think they do wonderful things. I find it amazing that most any enthusiast can strap one on and go to a track & make reasonably fast laps or quick drag passes in them. Everyone looks like a hero without any skill or effort... That is just what the bulk of the on-line chatter boxes have been asking for from way back when everyone was on AOL and used a Gateway computer.

    Whats the complaint?

    Again, I admire the manufactures for giving what you all know that the bulk of the wonder-boys have been asking for: A video game on wheels (i.e. GTR). Just don't bash Porsche etc for doing so.

    For me I like the holy sh*t - WTH?! - OMG! cars that I have (anyone can shoot a bullet, it takes a man to steer one) - But I still think that the new cars are superb (deserved applause), and that perhaps they are a nice place to visit but not live with - yet.
     
  11. photonut

    photonut F1 Rookie
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    Nov 16, 2007
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    i agree completely with your post. the porsche turbo pdk elicits a fantastically smooth, quiet but somewhat boring acceleration. the numbingly quick acceleration should elicit excitement, not simply wonderment. see my thread: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=268755
     
  12. modena1_2003

    modena1_2003 F1 Rookie

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    I remember when I heard this. Almost afraid...

    I couldn't imagine a stock 911 Turbo hanging with an Enzo in a straight line... On a small stretch of road anyway :) .

    998 may be the second coming.

    _J
     

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