2011 FORMULA 1 AIRTEL GRAND PRIX OF INDIA: RACE *** Spoilers ***

+1000

 

Spot on bas!

 

If he won't tame his demons who will?

True about Phil. But I've found that when you're looking for someone to punch you in the nose you never have to look far.

 

We don't know any of that. It could be a figure of speech, it could be specifically about Hamilton. All I know is that Hamilton is the only person Massa has this problem with. Others seem to get around him pretty easily.

I'll take Smedley's message at face value...

 

lol

 

Here's what Martin Brundle says........

After contact in Monaco, Silverstone, Singapore and Suzuka there really is some serious bad blood now between those two, and I think that may have contributed to this latest episode.

Hamilton was clearly faster at this stage of the race and a great exit from Turn Four saw him moving partly alongside Massa.

What is significant here is that Turn Five is a fifth-gear sweeping left-hander with limited braking, and hard enough to get right one at a time.

Massa was penalised for the subsequent contact because he was looking in his mirror and so was deemed to have seen the other car.

That is nonsense - at 180mph, you have to look in your mirror and make a split-second judgement call as to whether it is your corner or not depending on exactly where the other car is.

I wrote this column on the plane back from Delhi and around me were drivers and team principals, along with other people I respect, and nobody can understand the Massa drive-through penalty.

I stand by my instant call in the commentary box that it was a racing incident - as Hamilton himself described it.

Massa should have left more room but Hamilton should have eased out of the throttle - in that particular bend. There is no point in risking another front-wing change there unless you are fully alongside and have claimed the corner.

 

THANK YOU

That's pretty much what i've been writing all along on this topic. Massa had the racing line, and he had the lead, throughout the entire incident. Hamilton was trying to outbrake on the inside, off the racing line, but failed to even achieve equal position with Massa ... let alone get in front of him.

In this circumstance, the leader is in NO WAY obligated to go off-line, and give up his position. Nor is he obligated to go off-line, to avoid the collision with the follower. It's the follower's job to brake or get out of the way, when his out-braking maneuver so failed, to avoid the collision. To suggest that the off-line follower, who fails to even achieve an equal position with the on-line leader (let alone gain the lead), doesn't bear the blame of the collision is just plain crazy.

And the fact that the leader "saw" the follower has no bearing. NONE. As supported, above

We can be pretty sure that the follower saw the leader, too "Seeing each other" does not change these basic rules of racing engagement. The corner was never Hamilton's, not even for an instant. Seems like even Hamilton himself understood this, in the post-race interview.

Gotta tell ya, it's gratifying to see more & more people ... including commentators and experts mentioned above ... coming forward on this. My faith in rationality is getting (a bit) restored

 

Here well read this one as well then: Andrew Bensons take:

The Indian Grand Prix was not the thrilling spectacle Formula 1 wanted it to be but if that amazing country is to succumb to the sport's advances after this inaugural race at least it won't be under false pretences.

The packed grandstands - unusual for a first race in a new territory for F1 - witnessed a grand prix that encapsulated in many ways what F1 2011 has all been about.

Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel strolled to a comfortable victory, taking only as much out of his car and tyres as he needed to. Jenson Button and Fernando Alonso - the other two stand-out drivers of the year - followed him home. And Lewis Hamilton found himself embroiled in yet another contretemps with his nemesis, Felipe Massa.

Hamilton, as has been well documented, has not had a great year. There have been some fantastic highs but by and large he has performed well below his superlative best.

On the way, he has been involved in some high-profile incidents, many of which have been his fault. But his collision with Massa in India on Sunday was not one of them.

As Hamilton's McLaren edged alongside the Brazilian's Ferrari into Turn Five on lap 24, it looked as if the Englishman was poised to pull off one of the great overtaking moves for which he is rightly famous. Instead, Massa turned in as if Hamilton was not there, and their races were ruined on the spot.




Hamilton has had so many penalties from race officials this year that it was perhaps no surprise that up in the commentary box Martin Brundle said he thought this might lead to another one.

But it became clear from replays that this time it was not Hamilton's fault.

He was virtually completely alongside Massa as they neared the brief braking zone and he was still halfway alongside when they collided despite - as he said afterwards - trying to pull out of the move when he realised Massa was not going to give way.

Massa could be seen looking in his mirrors a number of times, and made it clear after the race that he knew the McLaren was there. But he felt he was in the right because - as he put it - he "could not see" Hamilton as he turned in. As the stewards decided, though, Hamilton was far enough alongside to have a go - and Massa should have given him more room.

The only question you can ask about Hamilton's manoeuvre was why he chose to go for the move there.

The spot he chose is not, as Brundle and fellow commentator David Coulthard pointed out, exactly an easy passing place. With his speed advantage, and knowing that - because of their history this year - Massa was unlikely to be accommodating, it would have been less risky to try the move at the end of the long straight.

For Hamilton, the collision was especially bad news. While he had struggled in the first stint of the race, he was at this stage looking like he might have a shot at a podium finish.

On his second set of tyres, he was demonstrating good speed and, had he managed to pass Massa, he may well have been able to catch Alonso, too. That would have given him third place, assuming he, like the Spaniard, had been able to leapfrog Mark Webber's Red Bull at the second stops.

As it was, it was another weekend to forget for Hamilton, who was downcast after the race.

His father, Anthony, confirmed on Sunday what many in F1 have long suspected - that Hamilton simply wants 2011 to end and to move on to next season.

Hamilton seems to think he has identified the personal issues that have clearly affected him this year. He talked on Saturday about removing all unnecessary distractions and focusing completely on his job. For his own sake - as well as the global audience of millions for whom his aggressive, attacking style is so attractive - one has to hope it works.

The Hamilton-Massa incident provided a controversial distraction in an otherwise largely uneventful race, one of the least interesting of a year that, despite Vettel's domination, has so far generally delivered a fine spectacle.

That was a shame for the one grand prix with which F1 really wanted to make an impact. Nevertheless, while it remains to be seen whether India takes to the sport, the initial signs were good.

There were teething problems in terms of the organisation and track but these were nothing compared with the terrible problems around the Commonwealth Games last year. So despite the tight deadlines, India has now proved that it is more than capable of preparing for and hosting a major international sporting event.

The track was cleverly situated close enough to Delhi to make it accessible. And although the ticket prices were always going to be out of reach of the average Indian, they were clearly affordable to enough people to make attending the race an attractive proposition.

The result was virtually full grandstands - according to official figures, 95,000 people packed into the Buddh International Circuit on Sunday.

That is already a massive step forward from other 'new' races such as those in China, Turkey and, more recently, South Korea. In all those places - and others - F1 appears to have made virtually no impression at all, to the point that many within the sport privately question why the races exist.

Senior figures in F1 were unanimous in their praise for the work done by the Indian organisers. But that is to be expected - they are all desperate for this race to succeed in the world's second most populous country with one of the fastest growing economies.

Perhaps more telling was that the drivers were also effusive - not only about the flowing, challenging layout of the track, which Hamilton said was already one of his favourites, but also for the experience they had had there on what, for most of them, was their first visit.

"There was a big crowd and it was a big success for India," said HRT driver Narain Karthikeyan, the country's first F1 driver. "Having a high-profile event like this gives the country a boost. We are passionate people, we are happy with what we have and it is fantastic to have F1 here."

India has its share of problems - that is well known. Equally, though, if you spend any time there, it is difficult not to fall under its complicated, captivating spell.

After a debut that was unanimously hailed as a success, F1 is hoping that India will come to feel the same way about its new arrival.

 

The only problem with that analysis ... and it's a fatal one ... is that Hamilton was never "alongside" with Massa. Hamilton was always behind. Follower's front wheel, aligned with leader's rear wheel, does not constitute "along side". It does, however, constitute "behind".

If the two drivers finished the race in that configuration, there would be ZERO debate who was in the lead, and who was behind. Throughout the WHOLE incident at this turn.

Hamilton NEVER "took" the corner. He never had "equal fight" for the corner.

Compare the video from Hamilton's car to the video posted in post #341 of this thread. DRAMATIC difference. Racing is a game of inches ... this game, Hamilton lost.

 

Like I said before, I think the incident between Massa and Hamilton was 50/50; I think the stewards got it wrong. However, what's the difference at this point. Both Hamilton and Massa have had bad seasons and one race won't make anyone's season better. Massa has been slow all year; Hamilton's run into everything with wheels and somethings without. So, who cares who got penalized; it's not that big of a deal considering both need to step up their game and stop with these little incidents.


Mark

 

umm..sorry...but who is Andrew Benson, exactly?

 

Couple of comments:

1) It was one of the biggest (if not the biggest) MS fans on here who stated several times that Nico is an average driver. So please between you, SRTMike and Ferraripilot have a discussion and let us know whether Nico is just average or very quick.

2) I always thought of Rosberg as very talented and fast. At least when he joined F1. He was very fast in his rookie year. A bit of a revelation like Button in his rookie year. Then not much happend (just like Button) and he spent a lot of years in average cars (again as Button). When he was paired with MS I was certain that he'd get crushed by the 7 times champion, yet he didn't and actually reversed the hacking order. This year the picture is less clear.

So yes, MS got a lot better this year. He still has a lot of crashes and some truly poor qualifying sessions, but he is a great deal better than last year. I'd be blind if I'd deny that. But: Rosberg still looks unmotivated (for the lack of a better term) during the races. He wanders backwards through the field. Not just that MS passes him, but others too and that's not the sign of a good driver.

Maybe it is as Ferraripilot says and Rosberg sets his MB up for the perfect qualifying lap but not the compromise setup required during the race.
Maybe it is as Isobel says and MS underqualifies, makes it up at the start and then team orders put the positions in concrete.

I can't say who is right, but I am not very impressed by Rosberg's lacklustre performances.

That said, yes he'd be better than Massa at Ferrari. But it wouldn't change the overall outcome (being Alonso #1 there).

PS: Rosberg gave an interview before the Indian GP in which he explained to the press that he is still faster than MS. That to me is a big red flag: Every time a driver/team manager has to declare that they are faster/going to be faster you know they're in deep trouble. The really fast ones shut up and put the time on the tarmac.

 

That IS a strange thing to say, for any driver, isn't it?? Did you hear that interview, or did you read it? I'd like to think it was written and out of context, because if that's really what he said and meant, then that's just weird, even if it's true.

 

http://www.motorsport-aktuell.com/automobil/rosberg-michael-im-rennen-nicht-schneller-als-ich-4073899.html

He was interviewed in India and they asked him why MS is faster than him. His answer is a bit toothless: He states that this is not true and that there were incidents and that he still has more points. All true of course, but I'm missing the convincing argument.

He is right that ultimately points are what counts. But if you get passed by your allegedly slower team mate during the race, it is kinda hard to say that you are actually faster.

To me the bottom line counts. I don't give a damn who wins the qualifying challenge, the fastest race lap or best sector times, but who ends up with the most points. And that's not defending Nico, but to me the ultimate bottom line. Right now there is a good chance MS will beat him on points and if that's what happens, to me then MS is #1 at MB even if Nico wins every single qualifying "contest".

 

Stewards ruled otherwise tough luck id say Ham won.

Massa is a waste of track space always has been the only reason he got the gig in the first place was because of Todt.

 

You like reading the bbc column F1 website you will find him there

 

How's this translation?

In an interview with Indian journalists in Table Rosberg had to put up the question of why his team-mate, since Canada was faster in races than he did. "That's not true that he was faster in the race," the 26-year-old is quickly clear, but admits that Schumacher "in the race was closer to it than in qualifying, but he was not faster."

. The younger of the two Mercedes-Stars also keeps the turbulent races this season for a reason why the balance of power in 2011 slightly more diffuse: "Certain situations, certain people play into the hands of Formula 1 this year is so different - with the tires and with the strategies. Sometimes that is created that impression. "

For him, it was clear: "If you look at who has won the most points in Canada, then I am that I was still in the race mostly in front of him at the last race I was, for example in qualifying and the race.. more quickly. So this is not really the case that he was faster than me. "

 

To me one of the coolest scenes during the India GP were the shots of the Red Bull (Webber?) "racing" towards some Tibetan (?) monestery on some sandy gravel road. And then all the monks dressed in orange turn their heads following the long gone car.

I just loved that.

<a comment only for Speed viewers>

 

Very good on context, very poor on grammar.

Seriously, yes, that's what the article states. And you see how he is lacking a good argument for why he is faster (other than points).

 

Well, as much as I hate to argue, I don't really see it the way you first portrayed it.

My faith in him is restored...I'm sure he'll be relieved.

 

Strange how it's not so easy to accept when the Stewards rule against Hamilton!

 

Surprised Nico was baited. Time to consult with Pops.

Standard issue (and primo response) is, " Michael is incredible and I learn from him every day, I'm lucky to have him as a teammate and I'm not surprised you have the impression he is quicker". No need to mention quali stats or anything else as quali vs. teammate essentially indicates who the No.1 is since the dawn of time.

 

Worst thing about this whole Hamilton/Massa brouhaha is that no one is talking about Jensen's great race.

 

I feel bad that I put you into that very uncomfortable position....

 

Jenson ruined the race by letting Vettel get away in the first couple of laps!