2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE

Ill bet if he fiddled with the manual it would have been quicker too. The real thing is that the manual is not really far adrift of the paddle car. Could be because one is a slushbox and not a dsg, could also be that supercharged ohv v8 motor has so much Tq you just dont need to shift that much so paddles dont confer such a huge advantage.

My question about the camaro is it weighs 3900lbs, so how many laps can it really sustain at full pace before tires melt and heat becomes an issue.

Sadly manufactuers here play games because magazines wnat fatsest lap time not fastest sustained lap time. case in point are the Pirelli Trofeo tires. had them on my exige, no great grip and snappy untill haot, then almost slick like for two laps when the go off the boil and becoem slidey. Waht good are tires like those, not really great on street because they suck in rain and need real heat to work, and they fade on track afetr two laps. They are magazine lap settign tires.

Whenbw e go to sustained laptimes, the wheat will be seperated from the chaff in terms of performance cars. maybe the camaro can run 1 lap on pace with a 650 but after 10 laps imo the gulf will be large. Still for the street the camaro has more go than anyone can relaisticaly deploy and would never be embarased by an exotic. Besides the attention why buy an exotic?


Two future cars will set the trackday world on fire. The new Z28 which will probably shed 300lbs from the Zl1 and the rumored cayma GT4 rs.

The z28 will simply be an incrediable bang for the buck, i having performance you need to spend upwards of 400k to get today, and yet it will still be a relatively disposable car, maybe still a little too heavy though, but certainly somehtign you can drive to the track with your jack tools and slicks in the trunk and rear seat. Swap wheels/tires and go slay giants. A car in the mold of a 250swb ferrari

The cayman Gt3 Rs is reputed to have the 4.0 Gt3 motor and a 6 speed, it will have the mid engined resposmes, lighness and solidity of a great german car with a charismatic mroor and more than enough go. Another car in the mold of a 250swb ferrari.

Maybe like the 250swb there will be faster cars on paper, but for street and to drive to and on the track the camaro and cayman sounds like an automotive peak, the type of car after which you will not need another.

Good times.

 

I wonder if they will ever build that gt4rs and will it have over 400 hp? 911 has to be top of the line at Porsche and a 500 hp cayman would put a wrinkle in that mandate.

z28 sounds cool but they will probably put that new motor into vette too which will be even better platform.

bottom line is domestics might be taking the track day crown from the germans which is pretty amazing.

 

I hear the Gt3 Rs is a go. I guess the mtor will have 475 official hp due to different exhaust so the GT3 can have it place in the sun at 500hp and the Gt3Rs will be a step above that.

Hopefully the Gt4 will be sans centrelock wheels and with steel rotors so its actualy useable fort those that track.(11 will still be on paper one step up. Same as with current cayman and Gt3, but the Gt4 rs will be a lot closer. Hey VW needs sales and profits to pay for the diesel gig..

The Camaro is supposedly going to have a 5.5 liter version of the quad cam whereas the vette will be 6.0 or 6.2 at elast to start. But then the zl1 has the same hp as the z06, vette is much lighter though.

Personaly for my drivign tastes vete is limited, unless you like sitting in front of the rear axle.

I agree though the USA is taking the sportscar and trackday crown from the germans. All thats mising now in comparison is a nicer interior and brand cachet.

 

I've heard that the automatic shifts just as quickly (if not more so) than the DCT in the McLaren 12C.

 

Thats hard for me to believe

Even worst dct ive driven (gtr) is light years ahead of best slushbox ive tried (jag svr).

Forget about pdk, ferrari or mac. Another universe to gm auto

 

You've got to be in the minority on that one. I think the flat plane Voodoo sounds great! Regardless, the fact that Ford stepped up and even made a flat plane V8--at 5.2 liters no less--is to be commended. For the price of the regular GT350 (not the overpriced R), you really get a lot of car for the money.

 

I'll take the official results and the manual transmission, please and thank you.

 

A lot of car for the money is only half of it, in fact the Gt350R is a great car by any standard. The Gt350 is cool, but not my cup of tea because its not really trackable as an R is..

As recounted to me by a ford engineer the motor though, while putting out the power is a bit of a sales gimick. A flat plane crank of this size had never been done before simply because mo one saw how to solve the Vibration. Fords solution is massive counterweights on the crank, which negates the benefit of the low rotational mass inherant in a flat plane crank.

One could argue which sounds better a V12 or a bent V8, but the flat plane does not match up to either(maybe the ferrai flat plane has a unique sound at high revs). You can also see that ford sells an aftermarket Voodo block V8 with a traditional bent crank that has the same Hp and Ill bet like many a bent crank V8 it sounds sweet and is a smooth rever.

I also hear that the Cf wheels reduced the nurbering lap time by 10 secs alone which is a fantastic step forwards, their low weight/rotational mass probably has a big effect on accleration and braking too. .

So nothing against the Gt350R, of the current crop of cars it has to be in the top 5 and that includes exotics, its just that the flat plane crank in the motor is more of a sales usp than any real benefit. We'll see if or when the camaro looses a few hundred punds of lard and gets a real track motor how it measures up.

My guess is the z28 has to beat the Gt350R as a track machine. Fords followup will be the Gt500 which will be a turboed voodo block with bent crank somewhere north of 800hp. Maybe not an ideal track machine then but pretty unbeatable. Given all the lowly 400hp mustangs loosing control coming out of cars and coffe one wonders where it will all end.

maybe this Hp war will be put to bed by the insurance industrry as it was in the 60's. Given what we know about the rewriting of the EPA emisions and fuel economy regs from a technical standpoint I think 1000 hp is not too far off.

Still as we know 500hp and 3000lbs for a trackable car is infinitely preferable to a 3700lbs car regardelss of the Hp the heavier car may have. So hopefully we will see some lightweight specials too.

Its harder and more expensive to loose weight than it is to add more hp, and headline numbers with single lap times do sell.

Interesting times, the collector cars of 2050 are about to be produced.

 

DOHC heads on an LS are going to be what every other multicam OHV engine is...heavy and clumsy with low output/engine weight. And the handling of the car will suffer.

On the contrary, can you imagine a mid engine exotic with a hotrodded, modern OHV in it? It could cut 100 lbs, lower Cg and greatly improve the chassis dynamics. You could probably lose 50 lbs just in the cam timing hardware.

Agree with you on the flat plane GT350 motor. Sounds amazing and is really fun to discuss at Cars and Coffee but it doesn't make any sense.

I had a handbuilt Windsor in an old GT350. It likely resembled your 347. Spun to 8500 rpm and sounded like Godzilla on crack. Passengers would tear up with laughter in that car. Those motors are ancient technology though. Modern OHV engines are on a different planet with regards to weight, power, engine management, fuel economy and emissions.

When will a truly innovative or progressive engine design come out? I want to see weight and moving parts slashed in half. Turbos belong in a museum.

LSJ

 

Boxerman, you make an interesting point with the 250SWB comparison. A car that can win a local race and then be driven home is all but extinct yet I can see the potential.

There is a new race version of the ZL1 called the GT4R?

https://www.google.com/amp/jalopnik.com/the-chevrolet-camaro-gt4-r-is-a-weapon-of-mass-trackstr-1793060927/amp

This could influence the new Z28.

LSJ

 

Loosing weight is more expensive than adding hp. Thats true about rotational mass too, which is probably the most expensive place to loose weight. The issue with ohv motors is valvetrain weight(revs), the limits of what you can do with a single cam in terms of low rev driveability and (high rev) power, then there are limits on combustion chamber design.

Multicam motors pay a weight penalty but move past a lot of the drawbacks above.

The other soultion to an OHV is to turbo or supercharge. These add weight and heat but cost less. Its one reason why the last Zl1 had more hp but less performance than the last z28 and why the current z06 is not really a z06 but more like a z06 chasis with a zr1 motor, same with the new zl1 1le.

Yes the Ls7 would be the ideal motor having the hp and ohv lightness(look how light the c6 zo6 was), its also your hotrodded ohv, but apprently it couldnt make the cut in today's regulatory enviroment, was expensive to make, and as an oe motor seemed limited around 505 hp. So somewhere they figured muticam was the was to go. Lets see what the multicam weigths vs a LS7, and lots of other places to loose weight on car.

 

problem with weight loss is customers want the comfort, convenience, status, luxury with their performance even on cars they take to the track

how many cars that have opt out a/c and stereo are actually delivered that way? i would say next to none. people want sound deadening, good stereos, etc. hard to sell a $100k plus stripper even to track drivers.

how many track drivers can actually tell if their 500+ hp car weighs 3500 or 3300 lbs? i bet very few but everyone can tell if it has a/c

 

Good points. Another way of putting it, who thinks a 25000lbs 400hp car is faster than 500hp 3500lbs car. The number that sells is 500hp, and geared right with launch control its probbaly as fast or faster 0-60 too. If the hevay car can make one really fast lap, then its crowned king.


Yes very few people go to the track, but ferrari sells speciales and other pared down cars as does porche. Although porche did a fail with the new GT3 in attempting to expand the bandwidth of customers. they aleinated the faithful and I know of a few expanded bandwidth customers who hated their GT3s in comparsion to their "faster" more comfortable turbos.

What porche and ferrari do welland the corvette team for that matter is make different targeted variants off one platform. Using one car in multiple variants is how the got regular C6's, and "expensive" niche lighteweight z06's, and zr1s. There was enough platform volume to make niche variants worthwhile..

Ill bet lambo does just fine with the eprformante. Once you have the base car, as long as you can upcharge enough its often worthwhile to do niche variants.

based on all marque sales my rough estimate is out the box truly track capable variants of production cars is a 5k-7k units per year business. Worth it for some not for others.

 

Quite a few 14/15 Z-28's were built with no A.C. 5-10% of production ? I just made offers on two different sub 1000 mile no air unmodified as-new cars. Cars had no track time. Offers rejected . I can wait. Prices will continue to drop.

 

Yes!!

You are exactly right. Specs and gadgets sell and so do "more" of things that most people can't understand.

500 of something is better than 400. 4 cams are better than 1, more buttons in the cockpit are better than none, etc.

The Viper ACR and some of these extreme track models are perfect for us but they don't sell. It is sad...

LSJ

 

Remember, the valvetrain and rev "limitations" are not really limitations if the power output is already good. If you are making 500 or 600hp at 6500 then why rev to 8000rpm? Just for the brochure?

And, if the engine is lighter and smaller, then you will need less HP to achieve the same chassis dynamics and lap times. This is the reason a car like the Z28 can do what it can with "only" 505hp. It gets trounced in those big ultimate drag racing videos and is so much heavier than most of its peers on the track. Yet, somehow with only 505hp and almost 4000 lb weight, it can dance like Janet Jackson.

Sure, it has world class chassis development and hardware, but the characteristics of its engine (output, size, weight, packaging, CG) are all playing a critical part in the coordinated effort.

My only GM vehicle so far had an almost 600hp LS that ran on pump gas and was fairly tame cruising around town. It was daily driver reliable too. That was a long time ago and I could see them massaging and tuning another LS to get to that level with modern regulations.

Yes, OHC *could* produce more power and more revs but it will *have* to in order to offset its significant disadvantages. The car will have to lose weight from everywhere. We'll have to see carbon bodywork, lighter glass, totally different suspension tuning. New shock valving, different springs, etc. Trans ratios would likely have to be shorter and using a higher numerical final drive so that any potential loss in low rev torque wouldn't be noticeable. Then, after having done that, the MPG would likely decrease.

All of that so you can see an extra 1k redline?

LSJ

 

For a given displacement all things being equal the OHC or in this case DOHC engine will produce more headline power.
The current 5.7-6.2 format is maxed out out in terms of avialble tech. A 5.7-6.2 OHC engine will make more paper spec power and post better emissions/fuel economy(in terms of how its tested, not necessily relality). As you know, paper numbers, in this case HP and single fastest laptimes sell cars. Most buyers do not look at or care about weight or sustained laptimes. DOHC then is the answer for many reasons.

While the ford DOHC engines are a lot heavier than the old 5.0 and no doubt the new GM engines will be heavier than the OHV ones, possibly modern material and tech will mean the weight gain as not as significant as you fear, and we may have one awesome motor.

Now would I prefer a 2800lbs mid engined vette with a 505hp ls7 with manual, for sure yes. But what we will get is probably going to be 3500lbs with paddles to take advantage of the high revs and lower low down Tq of a DOHC.

Its inetrestign that Randy probst didnt get a better laptime with the auto Zl1 over the manual, even though GM claims it shifts faster than the porche pdk and has 10 gears. The simple answer is the TQ of an OHV v8 with supercharger is so epic down low you simply dont need to be shifting so much and those fast shifts and extra gears don't confer a significant advantage in a motor with the zl1 power characteristics.

Without delving into paddles too much, these cars are not necessarily faster other than on paper and paddles and multiple gears mask what in many cases are narrow peaky powerbands.

On the average Ferrari club run if I am following a 360 on up, and there is a passing opportunity I can hear the 360-430-458 motor blipping and downshifting to get to power, which is a time delay as it runs down 3 gears. On the BBI we just squeeze on the gas pull out and have to be careful not to run into the rear of the 360 as its motor finally finds the accel gear.

There is vast difference between useable on the road power(where ohv or 2 valvers are best), and paper speed. The hybrid as in laferrari then works to bridge the gap using an electric motor acting on the crank to fill in the low rev TQ of a very a highly tuned peaky OHC engine. All at the expense of even more weight, and complexity or the law of diminishing returns. But it does return paper numbers for 1 lap.

Seems like if we are going above 650hp DOHC is the answer for many reasons not least legislation and marketing. Still if the LT5 from the Zr1 is any guide a DOHC 5.7 v8 can be one hell of an epic motor, with sound and breadth of power an OHV cant match.

There is also the arguement that (as with ecoboost) on a DOHC you dont gain any real fuel economy advantage if and when the power is being used. Thats because DOHC uses more revs to make a given amount of power and revs=friction loss.

So what we can say about DOHC is that for a given dispalcement it can make more power, but as you point out for a comparable weight and physical size its makes less power. The advantages then are you can make more emissions and legislative compliant power than in an OHV motor.

 

The weight differences between cam in block and overhead cam engines isn't really that great. For example, the Ford Racing catalog lists the weight of the Coyote V8 at 444 lbs, and GM's LT1 is actually listed as being heavier, at 465 lbs. Yes, the LT1 offers over a liter more displacement, but all things considered, they offer "similar" peak numbers.

While the Chevy small block was and continues to be a great line of engines, there's a reason why nearly every performance car on earth utilizes overhead cams.

 

But the ford 302 was lighter no? and lighter still if you make it in aluminum.

in any event it also stands to reason that if you take a LT1 block and put DOHC heads on it you will pick up weight. It also stands to reason than then being bale to spin that motor to 7 or 8K rpm, and with better combustion chambers its going to be able to produce 650 or more Hp and power will be spread over a broader rev range which may be even more significant to vehicle performance..

 

Except that displacement doesn't really correlate to performance. Engine size, weight, mpg and CG is what really matters. Is it efficient in relation to how much fuel it consumes? Is it efficient based on what the engine actually weighs? Is the weight down low? Or is it up high?

Weight is precious...it must stay at a minimum.

Fuel is precious...must use less when possible.

Displacement is not precious.

It's a convenient number that most associate with efficiency. That correlation is questionable at best. Why should we care if our 550bhp, 400 lb engine that gets 25mpg is 1.1 liter or 8.1 liter?

We should care about which engine is larger in physical size, heavier or more thirsty. The HP/Liter ratio doesn't measure any of this.

And, I agree with you 100% on your point that most buyers don't look at or care about weight. OHC is there because it sells and most manufacturers know that "more" of everything sounds cooler on the website. Also, it would be expensive and embarrassing to switch engine architecture.

Thankfully, this site is not most buyers and we can have a good technical discussion that most buyers will not have.

And, like most of you, I hope the manual trans is always available in performance cars.

LSJ

 

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Agreed about weight and from a performance perspective its the biggest single factor. Well power to weight ratio, and where the power is formed and the breadth of the power over a rev range. Each motor has its advantges here. But id hard to beat a SBC on that mertric.

Yes fuel is precious, and arguably due to valve placement/head/combustion chamber design a Dohc for a given Hp will burn less and have better emissions.. Which is one of the reasons why we see these motors, in everyhting from minivans to exotics.

In any event as you point out for performance weight of engine and hp is what counts not displacement.

Is a 8.1 400hp motor better or worse than a 1.8 400hp motor. Well a 1.8 may be a lot lighter, and so many other componants of the vehicle can be lighter too in a virtuous circle. Whats better a 400hp car that weighs 2800lbs or one that weights 3300lbs. Other factors too, the 1.8 is probably going to be more expensive to produce, its probably turbo so a limited power range. All swings and roundabouts depending on intended vehicle use/market.

A better way to look at it, is a ferrari 458 and C6 Z06 weight and performance. I dont see the 4.6 dohc in the ferrari conferring a weight or performance advantage over the 427 in the vette. Of course as soon as we go Turbo Dohc vs supercharged OHC the ferrari seems to have the advantage.

One other thing thats really relevant, a smaller displacemt motor usualy needs lots more revs to make a given hp. This creates a lot of frictional drag, negating much of the fuel economy benefits of small displacement in sprited but not extreme driving conditions..

Back to market reality. Would I ratehr have a 3000lbs 505hp NA Ls7 vette over a 650 hp 330lbs supoercharged vette. If I am going to the track, there is no question the lighter car is the way to go, and even if "slower" for a a few laps ultimately its going to be the quicker car for the day, and use far less in consumables like brakes and tires too.

Thats the reality. However Gm for whatever reason does not have a Ls7 anymore and the market likes 650hp more than 505, and how fast the car is for single lap. We can see to get 650hp from an oem ohv motor requires s supercharger which when all is said and done will add 200-250lbs to the package. So there is a conclusion that you can add less weight, burn less fuel, be more "exotic" and get more hp with dohc, probvablky the performance metrics of the car are better too..

When you get to camaro weight levels, the differences in weight between Na OHV vs DOHC are even less relevant. 3700 vs 3800lbs but hp may be significant..

We shall soon see what the conclusions Gm comes up with and the performance Deltas apprently DOHC going in current camaro and vette.

For an example of what can be done with the good old chevy ohc architecture check out nelson racing engines. Do you want 1100 or 1500 hp in your daily driver. Myself I want a
chopped 48 caddy, with modern suspesion brakes etc running 1500hp.

There are also some VA V16s being built now of the OHV chev architecture. Pretty neat they CNC the block, the other custom bits required are the crank, the rest is off the shelf, and they use 4 sets of chevy heads(which saves a lot). Its really long but has the relative weight savings inherrant in the Ohv setup. Too bad caddy does not have its game on.


Lets also not forget the OHV hellcat motor, 707 fade free hp now, and reputedly going for 850 all oem emissions legal. But it is big and heavy even compared to a viper motor.

Speaking of vipers, and speculating idly I always felt that FCA should have done what Ryan falconer and other did with the ohv pushrod setup. Ie they should have added 2 more cylinders for an ohv V12, that would have imo done the viper well. For 100k+ the viper sounded like crap, and thats a subjective factor which is really important at this price range, nor did it seem exotic in this field which is also really important. An Ohv V12 would have been quintesentialy American yet exotic and a USP, plus you could use existing tooling..

Yeah lets hope the stick sticks around. I think it will in certain applications.
Fun conversation, thanks.

 

70k for this much performance is insane! Probably best cost/lap time ratio in world. Gtr, m4, etc are in trouble. Those who paid over sticker for 350 shelby? Chevys own z06 is in trouble when its a 100k plus car. Wow and kudos to camaro

 

7.16 minute lap time at ring! insane

 

FYI

You can buy a one owner 2014/2015 Z-28 with less than 1,000 miles and no road rash - asking 45K. A buyer will be in an even better position during the winter.