2019/ 20 Corvette ZR1

I get your points.
I was not talkign racing though, just performance driving.
One way priceh keeps the 911 relevant is because they still make the Gt3.
Cayman sales were moribunbd untill the Gt4 cale along.
While the "fatsest" porche is the Turbo, the one thats backordered hard to get and cretaes the aura is the slower lighter Gt3.
In other words halo versions of the Gt cars, in this case halo means track ability for the amateur. weeklend warrior.

I would argue that the C6 z06 was when the vette got taken seriously for the first time in a long time.

 

^^^^
The Cayman is still sucking wind, sales wise, in the U.S. If the Corvette sold at Cayman levels, we wouldn't have the Corvette.
I don't know where you got the idea that the GT4 pumped up regular Cayman sales. Obviously, the GT4 sold out and was very desired, but it had ZERO effect on the Cayman overall.

The ZR1 is, without question, a track performer. But, consumables are just that, items that are consumed. Clearly, a car like a Lotus will be easier on consumables because it's lack of weight (and power), but GM is in the car SALES business first. With all respect to Lotus, if they could sell as many cars in 10 years as Chevrolet sells Corvettes in ONE year, they (Lotus) wouldn't be continually fighting to survive or disappearing until another sucker comes along and buys them.

 

Sadly, the NSX is charging towards being the punch line to a joke. They sold 5 (FIVE) in April...Clearly, everyone that wanted one got one. Now....
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/acura/acura-nsx/

 

The Cayman was suppose (I guess) to be a less expensive alternative to the 911, however it's price has climbed towards the 911 territory
and it's performance is average compared to many cars on the market. Also factor in the performance used car market and the Cayman
get's overlooked for any perceived value and the lack of sales are the result of this which will probably cause it to go away soon?

 

Well, look on the bright side; 5 sales in April 2018 beats 2 in June 2016.

 

I wonder if there is a lesson there for the Corvette marketing people. Plus and more importantly the General Motors bean counters! Got to know your market...

 

^^^^
The Corvette just had it's 65th anniversary....I'm pretty sure they know their market.

 

I have to say that is one pretty good looking car-especially in Orange.
Not cheap at 130-140K but a lot for the money. I think Chevy has a hit with this one...

 

i guess we'll split hairs. A track performer for 3 laps is a zr1, as opposed to trackable, or a trackday conteder.. Autoweek did a Zr1 story they were allowed out for 5 laps each time, wonder why.
The ZR1 can post some astounding numbers for a very limited amount of laps. Any car that will use $8k in consumables per day is not really trackable. Also how many pads and sets of wheels do you need for 1 day at the track, a lot. Its a stunt not a real track contender, thats the difference.

Tyhe cayman I agree has been a poor seller. If you look at cayman sales when the Gt4 came out, GT4 doubled their sales. My only point here being that there is a premium market for cars designed to work on track, as opposed to perform a few great laps(zr1). Takign the porche cue further, and digressing they have shown that in the track/performance/lightweight, in other words true sportscar as oppsoed to really fast Gt car category, there is also a market for a stick, hence 70% of the 2018 Gt3s beign ordered in stick, where the naysayers said the stick was dead. Performance drivers still exist and in sufficient numbers. The ZR1 is an exceptionaly fast Gt car that can turn a few hot laps before wilting, just liek otehr Gt cars, thereds difference to a real tracjkabnle car, which the c5 and c6 zo6 were.

My point is there is a real market for a vette that can perform on track all day, and its this car that will give the vette real cred, not least because track people dont really care about soft leather or paint, but theye do care how ti works and these driver drive brand halo amongst the younger crowd... To the porche anology a market for a 911Gt3 type vette as opposed to a 911 turbo type vette(zr1).

Vette is risking becoming harley with aging buyers dying off, thats a part of the reason why theyre going ME, to get the younger buyers interested. I dont belive a 800hp 3600lbs vette will appeal to a younger buyer than the current Zr1, for the younger buyers they need a car that has real track cred, even if it does not go there for 90% of buyers. That means loosing weight even if it means less hp.

One need only look at the abject failure of the new NSX to see that great paper performance numbers with great weight and complexity will only attract a few wealthy duffers to cruise in.

The Vette as a single car range tries to be all things like a 911 does too. On one hand we have a base car with auto crusing round fl, we have the Gs which actualy goes to the track, the current zo6 which is a dud, and the zr1 which is a swansong and will sell in limited numbers, but is truly impressive for what it is..

The base auto car does the volume, the high hp car does one form of halo and tarck version does another. My point being I hope they make a real track able contender this time. The Gs works on track but compared to a Gt3 or any number of otehr cars its not a real conteder. A track able car is the hardest one to do right, and the C7 never had a real conteder here, lets hope we see on with the Me car and not just a heavy high hp one.

 

The NSX is not a bean counter problem though, or even a paper numbers problem, its just not a real contender in any category except excess tech.

 

The NSX is doing what the LFA did. They will eventually become collector items.

The ZR1 has too much fugly aero imo. I know it serves a purpose, but the entire GT3 look I think is overkill for the street. They could make it more subtle like the 720S, which is still great in the aero department, but not as in your face about it.

 

The ZR1 was limited to 5 laps because there was a LOT of press there waiting to take turns with the car. The cars went out, did 5 laps, came in, and another guy hopped in and took off. This notion that the car (ZR1) has the same overheating issues as some Z06's is incorrect. The car is a big, fast, car and if one is going to track it and has the skill to use it at it's limits (not the driver's), it is going to be a pricey proposition, but no different from any other REALLY fast street car (GT2RS/GT3/GT3RS/Pista/etc). The limits of these extremely fast street cars are SO much higher that they cannot be compared to something like a Lotus Exige/Elise.

 

It is notable that from what I could ascertain on Rennlist/etc, Porsche does NOT warranty the GT cars for track (HPDE) usage anymore. All C7 Corvettes (except the BASE Stingray) carry their warranty for track usage, as long as one follows GM's detailed (in the owners manual) track prep (oil, trans fluid, etc).
Just FYI, the C7's covered for track use are: Stingray Z51, Grand Sport, Z06, ZR1. The base Stingray is NOT covered because it is wet sump.

 

The ZR1 is an incredible track car and can essentially run with any street car being produced today(at least anything that could be remotely called production). It has no heat issues. Yeah, it uses tires and brakes after a day of true at the limits track use. As jimmyb said, when the limits are that high, consumables get consumed. When it turns lap times better than many race cars, it will use tires just like they do. For the casual DE track session, those items will last much longer.

 

It does not have an overheating problem, no one said it did. It has a consumables problem due to excess weight. How many laps or minutes do tires and pads last.
Mechanicaly the car is great, conceptualy theyre trying to sell this as a trackday king when its too heavy to last 30 mins.

I know its hard to convince people who dont go to the track that this car has a fundemental flaw, but it does, excess weight. Theres a reason the Mclaren senna weighs 2700lbs, I"m sure Mcklaren could have made a 1000hp motor in a 3500lbs car that would also turn superlative laps for 3 or 4 laps.

Bottom line amongst many, is that to be taken seriously a car has to be able to hold up on track all day and be a contender. In the 21st century fast cars driven fast in most cases do so at the track. Thats why there has been an explosion of DE events, and cars that allegedly work in that enviroment. Mechanicaly maybe the zr1 can hold up, what cant hold up are the tires and pads, its just physics. The last vette to be a real contender (in era) in terms of performance and track durability was the c6 z06,and even that one needed the brake lines changed if it was to venture trackside in any serious way..

the Zr1 is like a porche turbo, really fast and a statement. Its a great acomplishment, an American veyron or aventador. But if youre going to the track the GT3 is the model to follow, hopefully we will see a lightened and not necessarily overpowered version of the Me vette..

 

Tires in 30 mins and pads in 1 hr. At least thats what reported and thats the issue. Its an incredible track car like veyron or aventador is an incredible track car.

 

^^^^
Who "reported" that? How many ZR1 owners are GOOD enough to go through tires and pads that quickly? No one is questioning that it would be lovely if the car was lighter (and if it was, easier on pads and tires), but to bring up the McLaren Senna to prove your point is just silly. You can buy TRUCKLOADS of pads/tires for a ZR1 for what a Senna goes for. And it's not like the Senna isn't going to CONSUME pads and tires also. Which brake pads are cheaper, the ZR1's or the Senna's?

And the revisionist history is funny on the C6 Z06. The LS7 had WELL DOCUMENTED valve train issues so, while it was light, the top end was a potato chip (see "LS7 valve guides"), especially on the early cars.

And seriously....how many Senna owners are going to track this car?

 

I can only compare my C5Z to my C6ZR1 because I tracked the hell out of both. Most capable C6ZR1. Most fun on track C5Z. Neither went through a set of pads or tires in one day with me driving. The C6ZR1 weighs close to the new so I call BS on the mag statement. But then you guys are neglecting the fact they were using the track tires that are barely street legal too. Those have been known for years not to last long. As for brakes evidently those professional journalists, uh I mean drivers, don't know how to use them correctly. My CCB's got four full track days.

 

sweet

not just the laptime ... but the sound!

 

Does make the right racket (ICE not going away quietly at Chevy!)! Randy's got a good gig ...

 

Car looks and sounds good at RA. And a 1.26.5 is fast. Another second a lap faster it it will be beating my close to 10 year old 145hp Formula Continental!!!

 

mid pack for GT3 Cup qualifying

also, big wiggle at the top of the hill going into 3.

 

Yeah you coudl buy a lot of tires and pads for the price delta to a senna, but how are you going to get all those consumables to the track?


Dosent matter who makes the car, +3600lbs is fatal. Anybody who seriously goes to the track will tell you that.
I was running lastr week with someone in a new z06, it wasnt even close. 2400lbs and 360 hp beats 3600+lbs and 650 hp.
The only place the vette was quicker was down one long straight. But their entry speed due to lower corner exit speed was less and they had to brake way sooner so even there the adavantage way negligable. Everywhere else the vette was way slower.

After about 90 mins of runtime the vettes tires were shot, whereas the lighter car, well we can run 2-3 180min days.

I guess it all depends on how hard you run, but start going to the track often enough and using the full potential of amachine and weight will be the be the enemy.

Interestingly I was talking to somone parked next to me in the pits, he had one on those fully worked track cayman. I think he said he had put +200k into the car and it was really quick as it should be. He told me that he had had a C6 and C7 z07 and even with unlimted budget mods to both cars he had given up bitten the bullet and done the tracked out cayman. The C6 had apprently blown the motor on a straight, not the valves he said some of the conrods had come out the bottom of the block while other pistons had gone into the head.

Vettes are really fast cool road cars. The NA ones can be modded fairly easily to be trackday kings, but they will always have their weak links(in areas that shouldnt be for trackday machine) where corners were cut, such are the ways of Gm.

The point to me about the C8 or whatever the Me car is called is that a Me car is theroeticaly designed in such a way that it can be track optimised, hopefullyw e see soem version that is. Otherwise its another marketing excecise and bloated Gt, sucessful as that may or may not be.

 

^^^^
So, what car are you driving that is 2,400 pounds with 360HP?
I know of NO such car being offered by ANY manufacturer in this country. I'll assume you are talking about a modified car verses a street car which is ridiculous. If you want to play that game, then this will go on well into the next decade.
I'll also assume that you are a much better driver than the guy in the Z06. 2 guys of equal skill, the Z06 wins. Power to weight ratio guarantees it. No doubt a lighter, less powerful car is easier on tires, but you are obsessed with this. The Z06 is going to be harder on tires because of it's WEIGHT AND it's POWER but NOT to the point that equal drivers aren't faster in the Z06, because it is FASTER.

And finally, ANYONE who is going through tires on a Z06 in 90 minutes either CAN'T drive or is Jim Mero. You're not beating Mero in a 2400 pound/360HP car.

And finally, moving off the Z06/ZR1, go buy a 1LT equipment level Z51 Stingray. There will be NOTHING out there that will TOUCH it unless you are well into 6 figures. The Corvette will cost you under $60K. What "weak links" do you think THAT car has?