Marko: Honda big power upgrade for Baku Although Red Bull and some pundits declared that China was a turnaround for the troubled Red Bull Racing RB15 car, a machine not easy to setup aerodynamically according to bosses, it seems that the chassis is still short of its rivals Mercedes and Ferrari. Indeed after the Grand Prix yesterday, Christian Horner declared that race victories are unlikely for this season and that their focus was to close the gap on the front runners. “The truth is that we have no target for the number of wins. Our goal is to reduce the gap to the leaders,” admits Horner after both he and Marko said that Red Bull has an “aerodynamic problem” and they “hope” that Adrian Newey (chief designer) can come up with a solution. Newey himself goes onto admit that the car isn’t correct. (READ MORE) “At the moment the maximum we can do is score points,” Max Verstappen told Ziggo Sport after the race. The official line for Red Bull currently is not to blame Honda, bulking a very long established Red Bull tradition (Renault!). They claim that engine power is not the problem for Red Bull this season. The Honda engine they say holds its own for the time being despite the numbers showing a near identical performance delta in previous seasons with Renault. Not that truth plays a part in public media politics in Formula 1. The word is that Red Bull will be receiving a significant power unit upgrade from Honda for the next race in Baku. A known ‘power circuit’ with its immense start / finish straight. According to Dutch media after interviewing Helmut Marko, the Red Bull boss claims that “For Baku, we will gain an extra 20 hp from Honda” say the Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf. A remarkable statement from Marko as Marko previously declared that a combination of chassis and engine upgrades would on the RB15 for Monaco at the earliest, one race later than initially planned. Red Bull wanted to have the updated version of the RB15 with Newey’s aero fixes on the track for the Spanish Grand Prix. Honda, on the other hand, appears ready to go with their next upgrade for the Japanese power unit with an additional twenty more horsepower, roughly the equivalent to a possible two-tenths of a second gain in time per lap at Baku. It’s unknown for now that should the rumour be true and Honda has a big upgrade coming already, which engine components would be affected. Currently Red Bull has not had to change any of the Honda power unit parts so perhaps now is an ideal opportunity to bring forward the new engine as they won’t suffer any grid penalties, whereas leaving until later in the season could mean starting races from the rear. https://thejudge13.com/2019/04/15/marko-honda-big-power-upgrade-for-baku/
. Well, that's interesting The Honda engine showing identical performance to previous seasons Renault ?
Honda made a huge step reliability wise and are certainly on Renaults standards power wise also. A big step. Renault have made no progress really. Still unreliable and their boasts that Red Bull has made a stupid mistake and they'll look like idiots hasn't come true still. It's another unreliable turd. The relationship with Renault was toxic. Renault was always claiming they'll have some great fantastic engine upgrade for more power and more reliability. It remained a terribly unreliable engine still, even today. It simply wasn't acceptable. And then you have abiteboul mouthing off how they never got any credit for supplying the engine when they won titles...well it wasn't because of the engine now was it! It was the worst engine of the manufacturers. If Renault was unhappy they should've said something then not 4 years down the line. Fact is Renault supplied a **** engine to a team that lost many podiums and wins through their sub-par product. Renault DNF's for themselves or others may not matter so much because they never challenge for a podium anyways, but for a top team that delivered stellar cars year in year out, knowing they couldn't quite compete because of the engine in the back must be extremely frustrating. Red Bull's competitiveness in a way was their achilles heel; Mercedes nor Ferrari where interested in supplying an engine (even an old one). **** if Ferrari had delivered an engine they could at least be winning something...
You sound like Helmut Marko, the Red Bull mouthpiece ! In 5 years, Red Bull obtained 12 wins and 52 podiums with Renault engines Under the present formula. We will see if Honda can match that; then we will talk. Not saying Renault is terrific, but Red Bull are a bunch of ungrateful morons: they won 4 WDCs and 4 WCCs with Renault before! Renault bent backwards to fullfil their contract with Red Bull after they rejected their engines, and found that nobody else could supply them. In my book, you don't bite the hand that feeds you.
But it still doesn't excuse that Renault always overpromised and under delivered! Always lowest in top speed and acceleration. Always promises for more and never happening. Just more unreliability. How did Renault bend over backwards exactly? By accepting a big fat cheque for sub-par engines? It's not like Renault wasn't making them already? How many wins would Red Bull have obtained with a Ferrari engine? A Mercedes engine?! I think we'd be counting not just wins but championships.
You don't get it, do you ? Why Red Bull didn't have a Ferrari engine ? Why didn't they have a Mercedes engine ? Simply because they couldn't ! So it's pointless talking about a situation that couldn't happen, isn't it? Beggars cannot be choosers !!!!!!!!! The fact is that Red Bull should have been grateful that a supplier they constantly badmouthed in the media kept on supplying them. You don't remember when Red Bull broke their contract with Renault, thinking they would get Mercedes engine after a conversation between Lauda and Marko? When Toto Wolff heard about it, he alerted the Mercedes management, that soon put a stop to that possibility. Red Bull was very lucky that Renault took them back, and resumed supply. I wished at the time that Renault had let them hanging dry ! I would have really liked to see RB cars without engines in the pits, and Watch the faces of the Mateschitz-Marko-Horner trio!!! That reminded me when Ted Toleman had to sell his team because no tyre manufacturer wanted to supply him !!
Really whose fault is it that they couldn't get a Mercedes of Ferrari engine? It's not like Red Bull can't afford either. In fact I'm sure they where willing to pay substantially more than anyone. Mercedes and Ferrari choose to not deliver because they where too scared of them. Red Bull's brilliance scared them off. Renault on the other hand couldn't really say no. Red Bull is a huge customer of them (or was), at 40 million+ a year in their pockets, or 20% of their budget in other words. That's a big chunk. 2014 onwards Renault never satisfied Red Bull with their unreliable and underpowered engines. Yet kept promising greatness year after year. Red Bull didn't break contract with Renault and then went shopping. They went shopping alright but Ferrari and Mercedes both said no, so they couldn't drop the engine. Rather different than the story you tell that they dropped Renault, went shopping, got doors slammed in their face and then went to renault with tail between their leg. Red Bull paid Renault a huge amount of money for their engines, so you can be damn right they want return on their investment. I can't see how Red Bull is the bad guy in a situation like this. Renault complaints about not receiving praise for their engine in the success years...what do they want, really? Red Bull more than often thanked everyone whenever they won...''I want to thank our team, our suppliers'' etc. Renault was a supplier. And their engine wasn't that good. Red Bull won despite having a Renault engine. Now put myself in Mercedes/Ferrari shoes, would I supply? Of course not. The humiliation of being beaten by a customer team, especially to a championship would be hard to swallow. No greatness in supplying the engine is there. Anyhow, scoreboard after 3 races: Renault retirements 8 Honda retirements 1 Renault podiums 0 Honda podiums 1 Renault points 20 Honda points 56 I think Red Bull is pretty happy so far.
Well then, if the only solution was to buy Renault engines to stay in F1, what did they complain about ? Why do you blame Renault for Ferrari and Mercedes refusing to supply engines to Red Bull ? It's a ludicrous argument ! Why over-rich Red Bull didn't look to build their own engines then?
Red Bull (I think it was Marko) announced widely to the press that Red Bull would be ending their contract with Renault, and look for another supplier. Marko had already a chat with Lauda and was convinced Mercedes would accept to supply engines from the following year. When Toto Wolff heard it in the media, he didn't bother to speak to Lauda and went straight to the Mercedes management to express his anger. Lauda went to ground, and Toto announced that the rumour they would share engines with Red Bull was a non-starter. In case the FIA would try to force Mercedes into this deal against their wish, Mercedes would invoke industrial clauses they have with Renault. Mercedes and Renault are partners in some manufacturing ventures (Renault provides small engines to MB, for example, the Smart and Twingo cars are built at the same plant, etc ...) and Mercedes wouldn't like to jeopardise that Relationship by acting against the French associate. That's how Red Bull had to capitulate in its plot to throw Renault out. Renault accepted to maintain the contract, and in a fit of spite, Red Bull decided to badge the engines as TAG Heuer !!! From then on, Red Bull cannot blame Renault for anything. They should be grateful to be still in business, IMO.
But Red Bull didn't end the contract yet. They where shopping, out in the open, that's true. At this time the FIA stepped in and said something among the lines of ''if no manufacturer allows another team to use an engine we'll pop all in a hat and do a draw''. In between all this Renault/Red Bull came to some form of agreement and the TAG badged engine came to light. Renault still associated themselves with Red Bull whenever a decent result was had so Renault is as much to blame for the reliability and power issues it suffered when not IMO. I, frankly, can not see how anyone can defend Renault in all this. Time and time again did they promise a better engine both in power and reliability and each time they failed (and still are failing with their all new oh so powerful engine). They where paid a huge sum for their service and did not deliver. Red Bull is guilty of 1) pointing out Renaults flaws 2) being too good to get a different engine from another manufacturer.
Its not the same engine, Honda had a new engine built 18 months ago, and some bits were made locally to me.
I am not defending Renault, I am blaming Red Bull for being an awkward Customer and acting in bad faith. The Renault engines with all their faults couldn't be that bad since they allowed Red Bull to Pocket 12 wins and 52 podiums, I would say. Maybe not what Red Bull expected, or were acustomed to, but this is F1, and you don't win all the time. If I am no satisfied by the products I get from a shop, I take my custom somewhere else. Why couldn't Red Bull do the same? Oh, yes, I know, they couldn't get Mercedes or Ferrari engine. Hahaha. Tough ****, I say to that. They still had a choice then: PUT UP OR SHUT UP, no? Or take their moaning somewhere else and get out of F1 !
You buy something and it keeps breaking. Do you complain? I would. I don't understand how you won't get that Red Bull was refused engines because they are too quick . You can't make your own in short time. So if you're stuck with one supplier because the rest won't play ball (too scared), well you still have a right to complain don't you? How would you feel losing another race/podium because your engine refuses to work year after year? Despite paying millions to the manufacturer? And that same manufacturer promises great things are coming? Yet the only thing that happens is more unreliabilty? I'd be pretty ****ing upset also.
Anyone who isn't satisfied with a product and keeps buying it for 5 years needs to have his head examined ! Red Bull thought that by going to the media and slagging off Renault they would obtain results; it didn't work. I read (in the French press) that Red Bull technicians also didn't operate the engines, the way Renault had told them. In particular, they didn't respect the replacement schedules, and mixed constantly ICE, MGU-K and MGH-H units. Renault engineers noticed some components on engines returned to Viry-Châtillon were not of the same batch as those initially fitted. Apparently when challenged, Red Bull refused to explain why, but immediatly went on the offensive in the media.. So there is more than meet the eyes on this subject, and I don't expect you to change your tune.
I do get that perfectly. Red Bull was a threat to Mercedes and Ferrari. Therefore, they had only one choice: Renault. They should have played their cards nicely instead of slagging off their Partner. Mateschitz is doing it again, claiming that if he can't get a winning engine by 2021, he will leave F1. He sounds like a spoilt brat if you ask me, with no understanding of F1. Ferrari went through some **** and waited 23 years to win another title.
So playing their cards nicely, where would that have gotten them? If anything they'd still be stuck with Renault, almost certainly have a number of DNF's on top of their problems today. Sounds like a plan! Mateschitz complaining...whats new. But F1 is Ferrari's business (certainly back then), they needed F1. Red Bull does not.
They didn't respect the schedules? You know why don't you? RENAULT DIDN'T HAVE THE PARTS READY!!!! There'd be another session with a renault engine ****ting it's bricks and no parts available, so red bull had to mix and match parts of old and new engines. And get penalties for that **** later on. Red Bull tried finding a different engine partner but they had a problem: Mercedes and Ferrari didn't dare supply them Honda had exclusive contract with Mclaren and Mclaren refused to give anyone else their engine So they only had Renault! What are Red Bull supposed to say? "Yes we did break down, but many years ago we won some championships and Renault was lucky to ride our coattails?" Because if Renault's engines where so brilliant, how come they didn't come close to anyone then?
