That's not what hes saying. Of course they earned their wins and should enjoy them but those wins are NOT reason to believe that the Renault PU was anywhere close to the Mercedes
Ask any real competitor if he savors a win on merit or if he'd prefer to win because his opponent crashed, forfeited, got hurt, fell, etc. I was never a huge fan of NASCAR, but I completely stopped watching after Michael Waltrip won Daytona half way through or thereabouts when they called the race and gave him the artificial win. He jumped up and down... drank milk the whole nine yards as if he really "won" the race... knowing full well that it's decided on the last two laps. I never watched another NASCAR race after that.
NASCAR races on ovals are just like that. Only the last few laps are interesting to watch; the rest is just waiting.
Exactly... so if you cut a race way short... your position, even if you were in the lead at time, means very little. You were lucky... plain and simple. So for him to be bouncing around and acting like he just went the distance and actually orchestrated victory was a sham. But my overall point is and ties into what Bas was saying is that the handful of wins against Merc mostly came under alternative conditions other than pure race win. In F1... more than just about any other series, attrition is a considerable factor that has more weight, but it's still not winning 100% on merit. In the past I've criticized Ric for howling over his wins... which pretty much came under the very conditions we're talking about. Yes a win is a win is a win, especially in F1, but in the end I'll stand by my comments that "real" competitors want to win on an even playing field.
So, according to you, if you get to the chequered in first position because you inherited the lead from your unfortunate competitors, you are not supposed to celebrate and enjoying your success? You are supposed to put a long face, refuse the honours given to you, and claim on the microphone, that the "moral winner" was the guy whose engine blown off a few laps ago, or maybe the other one who got punted off the track by ... Verstappen, bla, blah, bla ... What planet are you on?? Real competitors grab victory by the tail and hang on to it!!!
William, as usual, you don't really read what people actually say. I think I'm pretty clear in that a win is a win, but true competitors simply don't savor it as much as winning on merit.
+1 not worth my time explaining it even. I mean if one can't understand that...I can't put it in much simpler terms!
You started out by saying "According to you..." and then completely mischaracterize my comments. I'm just never quite sure if you really just don't understand what people are saying or you do it on purpose for the sake of discourse. You do that a lot. I'm fine with you having differing opinions on things and mostly enjoy reading peoples' different takes on things, but this sort of deal gets frustrating. Moving on... under the bridge at this point.
How to fix F1: 11 things Formula 1 should change now to make it more exciting 1. Make it harder! We must accept we are a sport where the elements that are most important are demonstrating the skill of the driver and entertaining the spectator. The difference between a brilliant driver and a very good driver is now two or three tenths of a second proving the cars are too easy to drive so we must make it harder. 2. Forget Hybrid engines Forget about hybrid engine development. Manufacturers have already abandoned LMP1 where they themselves had created rules to allow them to show off their battery fuelled technology. We were told Honda would only join F1 if we had hybrids yet they happily supply half the Indycar field with straight forward V6 turbos. Hybrids bring heavy batteries and the loss of another driver skill with their need for fly-by-wire braking. Whatever we get we need a lot more power - and bigger fuel tanks! How often has anyone ever commented on how fuel efficient modern F1 cars are?! 3. Make standard wings mandatory We should standardise front and rear wings and allow greater freedom for ground effect downforce. When it gets to the stage that teams like Sauber spend their entire annual development budget on just building new front wings it is ridiculous. The fact that their size means collisions often slash other cars' tyres and then shatter with sharp shards of carbon fibre flying in all directions is surely enough reason to ban these modern monstrosities on safety grounds alone. 4. Standardise brakes Braking distances are now ludicrously short not only because of the speed a modern F1 car can enter corners but because of the incredible efficiency of the brakes. So take away some of that efficiency by producing smaller discs with harder compound brake material and make outbraking someone at least a possibility. 5. Ban all car-to-pit telemetry This would not only put the driver back in control but also save a fortune by cancelling the rows of computers being monitored both in the back of the garage and back at the team’s base. All engine settings must be fixed before the start and if the engine has a problem a big yellow lamp comes on and the driver can either choose to try and limp home or pit for a computer diagnostic to be plugged in. Same for brakes with a ‘thin pad’ warning just like we have in most road cars. 6. Take away power steering Much of the fuss about the ‘five seconds faster’ plan was that modern F1 cars aren’t as physically demanding as they used to be. Well obviously adding a bit more cornering force isn’t the answer because if an F3 driver can jump in and do the best part of two Grand Prix distances in a day round the very busy Hungaroring then it’s not tough enough! Removing power steering also hands more control back to the driver. 7. Ignore lap times as an indication of the success of a formula If I can’t see the difference when an F1 car laps five seconds faster in qualifying compared to the start of the race I’m pretty sure most of the spectators can’t either. Remember: the most dramatic and memorable races tend to happen in wet or mixed conditions when cars are often going ten seconds a lap slower – but are visibly harder to control. 8. Reduce downforce Select several corners around the world, starting with Eau Rouge, and, if all the cars pass through on full throttle, introduce rules for the next year to reduce downforce. Easily done with my standardised wings! If everyone is flat through Pouhon at Spa this year the once most challenging circuit in the world will be reduced to three S-bends, two slow corners, and two hairpins. 9. Sort out the tracks Stop spending money on outlandish Paddock facilities and demand track alterations that take a few squiggles out and add more straights. We all love to drive the Nurburgring but, like so many Tilke designs, it’s actually a never ending series of corners with one long straight – and, in equally matched cars, there’s very little chance to overtake until you get there! Make all first turns simple, medium speed affairs that you can take side by side. For example move the Monza start/finish (they do need new pits) to the straight that leads to the Parabolica otherwise every year someone’s race is ruined at that stupid chicane. And, talking of Monza, move all finish lines back to where the startline is to create that final dash to the line. 10. Make F2 compulsory We should make F2 compulsory for a Super Licence and make all F1 teams have to pay for a seat for their official reserve driver. Yes Raikkonen, Button, Verstappen and all made the jump without doing F2 (or its equivalent) but so many young drivers are giving up the dream and we need to make graduation to the top formula at least look harder from the public’s view. Delaying any of those mentioned from moving up by one year would have done little harm to their careers – and it probably would have helped Lance Stroll. 11. Guarantee an F1 seat for the F2 champ Finally, get the FIA to sponsor one F1 seat and then put the F2 champion in it. If the champion declines, as he has contracts elsewhere, then offer it to the runner-up. Brilliant publicity for the sport and a real incentive to young drivers trying to prise open that door. https://driv3trib3.com/p/how-to-fix-f1-11-things-formula-VokVVETdRZuhxMtIjMOyFw?iid=a1up5-GwTeG52jKU1Xwa-w
How to fix F1: 11 things Formula 1 should change now to make it more exciting 1. Make it harder! We must accept we are a sport where the elements that are most important are demonstrating the skill of the driver and entertaining the spectator. The difference between a brilliant driver and a very good driver is now two or three tenths of a second proving the cars are too easy to drive so we must make it harder. 2. Forget Hybrid engines Forget about hybrid engine development. Manufacturers have already abandoned LMP1 where they themselves had created rules to allow them to show off their battery fuelled technology. We were told Honda would only join F1 if we had hybrids yet they happily supply half the Indycar field with straight forward V6 turbos. Hybrids bring heavy batteries and the loss of another driver skill with their need for fly-by-wire braking. Whatever we get we need a lot more power - and bigger fuel tanks! How often has anyone ever commented on how fuel efficient modern F1 cars are?! 3. Make standard wings mandatory We should standardise front and rear wings and allow greater freedom for ground effect downforce. When it gets to the stage that teams like Sauber spend their entire annual development budget on just building new front wings it is ridiculous. The fact that their size means collisions often slash other cars' tyres and then shatter with sharp shards of carbon fibre flying in all directions is surely enough reason to ban these modern monstrosities on safety grounds alone. 4. Standardise brakes Braking distances are now ludicrously short not only because of the speed a modern F1 car can enter corners but because of the incredible efficiency of the brakes. So take away some of that efficiency by producing smaller discs with harder compound brake material and make outbraking someone at least a possibility. 5. Ban all car-to-pit telemetry This would not only put the driver back in control but also save a fortune by cancelling the rows of computers being monitored both in the back of the garage and back at the team’s base. All engine settings must be fixed before the start and if the engine has a problem a big yellow lamp comes on and the driver can either choose to try and limp home or pit for a computer diagnostic to be plugged in. Same for brakes with a ‘thin pad’ warning just like we have in most road cars. 6. Take away power steering Much of the fuss about the ‘five seconds faster’ plan was that modern F1 cars aren’t as physically demanding as they used to be. Well obviously adding a bit more cornering force isn’t the answer because if an F3 driver can jump in and do the best part of two Grand Prix distances in a day round the very busy Hungaroring then it’s not tough enough! Removing power steering also hands more control back to the driver. 7. Ignore lap times as an indication of the success of a formula If I can’t see the difference when an F1 car laps five seconds faster in qualifying compared to the start of the race I’m pretty sure most of the spectators can’t either. Remember: the most dramatic and memorable races tend to happen in wet or mixed conditions when cars are often going ten seconds a lap slower – but are visibly harder to control. 8. Reduce downforce Select several corners around the world, starting with Eau Rouge, and, if all the cars pass through on full throttle, introduce rules for the next year to reduce downforce. Easily done with my standardised wings! If everyone is flat through Pouhon at Spa this year the once most challenging circuit in the world will be reduced to three S-bends, two slow corners, and two hairpins. 9. Sort out the tracks Stop spending money on outlandish Paddock facilities and demand track alterations that take a few squiggles out and add more straights. We all love to drive the Nurburgring but, like so many Tilke designs, it’s actually a never ending series of corners with one long straight – and, in equally matched cars, there’s very little chance to overtake until you get there! Make all first turns simple, medium speed affairs that you can take side by side. For example move the Monza start/finish (they do need new pits) to the straight that leads to the Parabolica otherwise every year someone’s race is ruined at that stupid chicane. And, talking of Monza, move all finish lines back to where the startline is to create that final dash to the line. 10. Make F2 compulsory We should make F2 compulsory for a Super Licence and make all F1 teams have to pay for a seat for their official reserve driver. Yes Raikkonen, Button, Verstappen and all made the jump without doing F2 (or its equivalent) but so many young drivers are giving up the dream and we need to make graduation to the top formula at least look harder from the public’s view. Delaying any of those mentioned from moving up by one year would have done little harm to their careers – and it probably would have helped Lance Stroll. 11. Guarantee an F1 seat for the F2 champ Finally, get the FIA to sponsor one F1 seat and then put the F2 champion in it. If the champion declines, as he has contracts elsewhere, then offer it to the runner-up. Brilliant publicity for the sport and a real incentive to young drivers trying to prise open that door. https://driv3trib3.com/p/how-to-fix-f1-11-things-formula-VokVVETdRZuhxMtIjMOyFw?iid=a1up5-GwTeG52jKU1Xwa-w (3 = e)
I don't agree with standardizing wings; however they should be cleaned up. Get rid of the elements, make them longer (not wider), so there will still be loads of downforce (combined with venturi tunnels), so they'll be far less affected by the car in front. Not sure what's wrong with great paddocks etc. I take more issues with tracks being ruined putting parking lots on the outside of corners taking any challenge away from them. Rather the fix should have been in asphalting the very beginning of corners, where accidents actually happen, after the apex should be gravel/grass whatever...this way the actual challenge is still there in corners, as running wide has consequences. Also agree that F2 championship should basically guarantee an F1 seat somehow, but making it compulsory is not the right way. Reducing downforce....Hmm not so sure. Eau Rouge is flat out now in GT3 cars, twice as heavy as F1, less grip, much less downforce. Power steering, I don't really care about what they do about it. Fact is F3 drivers are all massively fit these days in full preperation of F1. The fitter the driver, the better the performance (general rule of thumb). To make it harder I'd say fit a mechanical differential that can't be fiddled with from behind the steering wheel.
Nothing should be done to take away the sophistication and cutting edge aspects of F1. It's the pinnacle of racing and should be complicated and difficult with barriers and success to those who achieve those incremental gains by out thinking their opponents...like RB did with Seb The key thing that I want is fairness and the ability for ALL teams to be able to succeed. This current era gave Merc the unfair advantage, barred any others from fixing their issues, then limited their ability to fix them later and as a result, handed Merc those championships. They still benefit from the FIA preventing teams from testing and developing those first 2 years. Save money on the front wing, cut the PU cost by 75% with a normal affair, then allow testing. Give teams the ability and the money to allow them to analyze and develop their cars along the way.
+1 just taking 90% of their elements away will reduce the cost drastically...and as you say cutting the PU cost is also necessary, like the DT artcle also mentioned, look at LMP1 where the manufacturers destroyed the class now it's dead, they made it too complicated and too expensive, the same with F1 now. A more exciting engine and more exciting racing will bring sponsors back, reducing cost for everyone involved.
SEPTEMBER 13, 2017 Liberty eyes F1 budget cap for 2021 Liberty Media is looking to introduce a budget cap of EUR 150 million per team from 2021. Germany's Sport Bild reports that the new F1 owner intends to bring in the dramatic rule to compliment the cheaper engine rules, with teams then allowed to spend a further EUR 50 million on marketing, hospitality and drivers. The smaller teams are obviously supportive of the move to level the playing field. "That number (EUR 150m) would actually be an increase for us," said Haas team owner Gene Haas. "I think the bigger problem is the bigger teams." Indeed, staff numbers counting 1000 plus are no longer unusual at the top of F1, so the biggest impact of the budget cap would be the forced loss of hundreds of jobs. "That's where the new owners are going to run into some big obstacles," said Haas. "You just can't change it overnight." But that's where the pre-2021 'glide path' comes in, with even Mercedes' Toto Wolff saying he is open to budget cap discussions about that. "I think we all live in the same financial reality, we have all seen teams growing dramatically over the years and we are all very sensible about wanting to somehow contain it," he said. "The discussions that have been happening are at a very early stage but I think there is no big disagreement."
OCTOBER 11, 2017 Liberty poised to tell teams F1 future plans F1 owner Liberty Media is poised to present to teams the sport's post-2020 engine concept. Auto Motor und Sport reports that in conjunction with the governing FIA, the proposed rules will be shown to the teams on October 31. "For me personally, with a white sheet of paper I would have a twelve cylinder engine with the sound and the power that the fans want," Red Bull official Dr Helmut Marko told Speed Week. And Sebastian Vettel told Playboy: "Downsizing is the way the world has gone, but with our focus on the sport and the show we would be better advised against this trend. "These days the cars are no longer so loud, and I believe this is not only not good for the spectators, but for us drivers as well," the Ferrari driver added. However, it is believed that for 2021 and beyond, Liberty and the FIA have gone for a halfway house compromise between Marko's wishes and the status quo, with a V6 engine with two turbos and MGU-K and MGU-H technology. Marko says it is crucial that the new rules allow independent engine suppliers to develop the 2021 engine and compete with the car giants. "This current dependency is unacceptable to us," he said, "because we cannot get the engine power that Mercedes and Ferrari have." Marko added: "Formula one must become consumer rather than technology-friendly. People buy the iPhone because it's easy to use, not because they want to know the technology inside it." Auto Motor und Sport said the 2021 plan to make the engines cheaper and simpler includes a range of standardised parts. It is believed Liberty is also proposing to scrap the F1 Commission and strategy group, and unveil on 7 November its plans for a budget cap to be installed as soon as 2019.
Aston staff recruits with F1 'brainpower' include Ferrari personnel Aston Martin has recruited staff with Formula 1 experience, including personnel from Ferrari, as it continues to evaluating entering the championship as an engine supplier. Aston is taking a close interest in F1's 2021 engine rules but president and CEO Andy Palmer has said costs need to be kept under control for the project to be viable. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/132421/ferrari-recruits-give-aston-f1-brainpower Image Unavailable, Please Login
OCTOBER 23, 2017 Marchionne tips 2021 engine rules quarrels Sergio Marchionne says he will not sacrifice "Ferrari DNA" in the next round of talks about the 2021 engine rules. Red Bull's re-signing of Max Verstappen has many paddock insiders wondering what the energy drink-owned team knows about the next set of engine rules. With costs out of control and Mercedes and Ferrari dominating, some believe many parts of the new 2021 engines will be standardised, and that some of these measures could be brought in early in 2020. Ferrari president Marchionne said in Austin: "There will be a series of meetings from now until the end of the year on engine development in 2020-2021. "The thing I make comment on, and I believe that my position will be shared by Mercedes, is that technical knowledge cannot be undone by the need to reduce costs," he said. "I am the first to say we need to reduce costs," Marchionne added, "but we cannot do this by removing Ferrari DNA. "It is a very delicate discourse in which there will be quarrels until the right equilibrium is found."
OCTOBER 24, 2017 F1 could scrap two by two race grid F1 owner Liberty is considering shaking up the sport's traditional weekend format. In Austin, the pre-race proceedings were suddenly changed when the pitlane was opened earlier to allow legendary announcer Michael Buffer to introduce the drivers in Indy 500 style. Not just that, Usain Bolt spiced up the waving of the green flag. "We want formula one to cross the boundary between sport and show," said Liberty's F1 commercial boss Sean Bratches. Now, the next innovations are being planned. Sporting boss Ross Brawn has been quoted by F1 business journalist Christian Sylt as saying Friday practice sessions could be axed in future, making room for more races on the calendar. "One of the things we are doing is looking at the format of a race weekend to see if we need to change that to make it logistically easier for them (the teams) to do more races," Brawn is quoted by Forbes. And Germany's Bild newspaper reports that another idea being discussed is a shake-up of the traditional 'two by two' formation on the race grid. The report said the grid rows in the future could alternate between two and three cars, increasing competition and the risk of a crash. "We are looking for ways to offer fans more," F1 chief executive Chase Carey said.
More than half the time they can't make it through turn 1 already... so now lets add a 3rd car? I don't know... to me there's nothing exciting about a turn 1 crash that takes out your favorite driver 20 seconds into the race. Why is that anymore exciting than a top contender starting mid-pack because of grid penalties? It's like hockey... forget fighting... I'd rather see amazing stick play. I want these guys to race... to have to fight to keep positions, not lolly-gag around the track once you made it through the first lap. I want severe penalties for the idiot overly-ambitious driver that bombs the inside of a corner in an impossible attempt to gain a position only to naturally smash into someone or force someone off track. That kind of crap drives me nuts.
So far, the only thing I've heard is that they're going to twin turbos. MGU H&K are still in the mix. Hows that going to make thing better. The first order of business... and to me is the overarching and only question that needs to be determined to define the direction of F1: Do we want F1 to be the pinnacle of COMPETITIVE RACING... the very highest level of auto racing itself... OR ... is F1 to be setup and used as a test bed and marketing platform for manufacturers? To me, there's some but not very much overlap between the two and each dictates a very different landscape. Nobody... and I mean nobody... watches F1 and goes and buys a Mercedes because there is some semblance of technology from F1 in their AMG. No one does that. They may buy a Merc, a Renault, whatever... because they admire the level of performance, but they don't care about how it gets there. Similarly, no one will not buy a Merc with hybrid technology because their F1 program is based on a V8 or V10 that isn't designed to save gas as it's primary focus as it races down a front straight at 225 mph. Once F1 decides what it wants to be, then the parameters will fall into place... for the betterment or eventual demise of the series.
