The 24 of Daytona are a lot different that when 0846 ran there. In fairness the 24 of Le Mans are as well. Which one interests you? Daytona with it's New Daytona Prototypes or what Le Mans/ALMS has become?
I like all sportscar racing. I wish the egos behind the sport would allow the same cars to run at both. Oh well. Still, I'll watch both.
I like both. I've attended Daytona for about 29 years and will make the pilgrimage this week. I would like to see the same cars at both, but that isn't going to happen soon, so I'm not going to complain and I'll have a great time. Besides, it's as much about the people as it is the cars.
Sportscar racing has deteriorated greatly since the time of the Ferrari P3/4; especially in the last 10 years. Daytona prototypes provide close racing, but they are nothing more than swoopy looking Nascrap with rear engines. The politics of the ACO made LeMans a farse last year.
Le Mans, with one exception. They need to get rid of the STUPID chicaines on the straight!!!!!! Let the car run, bring back the days of 240+ mph.
The FabCar designed DPs are great cars; affordable, well engineered and reliable (you can't knock them). Yes GranAm is a France family vision, but it provides a high visibility venue for people interested in going sportscar racing. LeMans is still a race close to my heart and it's no doubt that the cars are the premier class of their own right - to me, there's no wrong solution here; as long as they're not going around oval tracks, I'm happy. Anyone slighting the GrandAm DPs needs to check up their attitude or do a bit more reading; FabCar did an excellent job engineering the car and building up the series.
Like everything it depends............ Am I watching it on TV or actually at the race? During the 80's and early 90's both races were equal in my opinion because the cars were the same. You had Group C (2 classes) and then the various GT classes. Up until a few years ago I would always pick LeMans. The level of sophisticated cars up until around 2000 was mind boggling. The Group C cars and the ones thereafter were nothing short of F1 cars with body work. You had the 956/962, the Walkinshaw TWR Jaguars, the Sauber Mercedes cars, the Nissans, Mazda 787B (only Japanese overall winner), and the ultra cool Toyota GT1 followed by the "flying" Mercedes cars. But then everyone dropped out and the Audi/Bentley/VW/Lamborghini/Seat/..........you name it group took over (read Audi/Bentley) to use LeMans as their personal marketing kingdom where the Audi team comes in and beats up on the poor little privateers who have no money or drivers. I won't drone on about Audi's lack of competition since I have posted this complaint before. In a nutshell Audi/VW spends about the same on their food catering for LeMans as the rest of the teams spend on their ENTIRE EFFORT at LeMans. Audi is the Filet Mingon/Lobster/Dom Perignon of racing while the competion is eating finger sandwiches/Cheetos/Rally Diet Cola racing. Hell I venture to guess that the napkins Audi uses for their food catering cost more to design then some of the aero parts on the Lola Dome car. This year we will again see the now 5 year old (and tired) Audi design whip the field again. I think this year the competition will be even less. I think Audi will be able to come in at about the 15 hour mark and have verybody go back to their hotel room for 7 hours of sleep and then come back for the last 2 hours and still win by 50 laps. I haven't gotten excited about wathcing LeMans in 4 years. I used to hole myself up in my basement with Pizza and beer for 24 hours and tell the wife "just pretend I am not here until Sunday afternoon around 6 pm (I would sleep after the race was over). I would tape the whole 24 hours and then re-watch it on the treadmill the rest of the month. The past few LeMans I haven't even taped and I watched at most 6-7 hours total of each of the last 3 races. No doubt if you want to attend a race, even in it's watered down boring Audi domination, LeMans is the place to be. Short of watching the French race around LeMans in tractors or farm combines, I'd watch any racing there. Even with the largest class of word champion racers (ex-F1, CART, IRL, NASCAR, LeMans,....) at Daytona this year .................Daytona Speedway compared to LeMans is nothing more than a big parking lot !!!!! I am just waiting for my friend Barton to jump in here with his opinion ! Regards, Jon P. Kofod www.flatoutracing.net
24hours of Daytona is like the playoffs and the 24hours of lemans is like the Superbowl. you will be remembered for winning lemans. just like the Superbowl.
Le Mans obviously. The most important motor race in the world. The race which was the very making of Mercedes-Benz, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Porsche, Audi and (yes) Ferrari. Anyone thinking differently is delusional. BHW
Barton, If you look over past history LeMans is king and Daytona is simply another race. But Jim's original question was which does everyone prefer given what each race has become today (2005). I thought it might be interesting to compare big name drivers from each race using last season's LeMans drivers and this years Rolex drivers. Using that measure LeMans is a former shadow of it's past greatness. I am sure I have left some people of each list that people consider world class drivers, but I stuck to the cream of the crop. I did include anyone who got a ride in F1 (no matter how short) because that in and of itself is an accomplishment. So while Firman and Enge aren't world class drivers they did get to F1 and make the list. LeMans 2004 Tom Kristensen Emo Capello Johnny Herbert Allan McNish Ralph Firman Sebastian Bourdais Thomas Enge Jan Magnussen Colin McRae Danny Sullivan Of this list you have 7 F1 drivers, 2 Indy/Cart Champions and one Indy 500 winner and one multiple WRC champion and a six time LeMans winner. Daytona 2005 Marcus Amborse Scott Pruett Dario Franchitti Dan Wheldon Stephan Johansson Jamie McMurray Scott Dixon Darren Manning Casey Mears Jimmie Johnson Roberto Moreno Memo Gidley Jan Lammers Tony Stewart Scott Sharp Terry Labonte Bobby Labonte Brian Herta Jan Magnussen Matt Kenseth Kurt Bush Gregg Biffle Karl Wendlinger Paul Tracy Cristian Fitipaldi Budy Rice Boris Said Didier Theys Paul Newman Bourdais DeMatta Papis Here we have 8 F1 drivers, 9 IRL drivers of which there are 2 Indy 500 winners and 1 IRL champion, 15 CART drivers of which there are 3 CART Champions, 2 Trans Am Champions one of which won 2 titles, 1 multiple Australian V8 Supercars Champion, 10 NASCAR Nextel Cup drivers of which 5 are Winston/Nextel Cup Champions and seriously quick 81 year old actor whose known the world over. Looking at the depth of drivers the Daytona line up whips the LeMans lineup. That's not opinion but fact. Even the dreaded Grand Am Prototypes that you hate don't have much to fear from LeMans. Other than the Audi R8, there isn't any other notable car in LMP class (Dome, Courage, Pescarollo, and the rest are all kit cars compared to the Audi). I won't compare GT class cars because they are basically similar in most cases. Overall LeMans is and always will be the greatest endurance race in the World in terms of reputation and history. But the tide is turning in terms of driver talent and any one who thinks otherwise is delusional !!!!! Regards, Jon
Just because you see R8s racing, does not mean it's Audi vs. Audi. There was no factory effort last year, just 4 private team racing balls-out with identical cars, just the way it should be, just the way it's always been. That list of drivers is very slanted. This may not be a propular opinion, but I don't really see IRL and NASCAR drivers as world class, espeically when talking about road-racing. And just browsing thought this link http://www.lemans.org/univers_sport/24hauto/live/team/ifc/engages_gb.hTML, there are indeed a few guys you omitted: Alan Menu Ricard Rydell Ron Fellows Max Papis - F1 (he only counts when racing Daytona? ) Oliver Barretta Emanule Collard JJ Lehto - F1 Emanuale Pirro - F1 Eric Comas - F1 Andy Wallace David Brabham - F1 Jan Lammers - F1 ---- I have had a tough time getting interested in the Daytona Prototype class, but I will give it another shot this year. Sebring anyone? I know it's only a 12 hour sprint, but IMHO it deserves mention with the 2 great 24 hour races.
Jon As an aside I met the Champion/Audi guys last spring and had a close look at their car. They were also able to get a look at mine as I drove up in J6. They are a great bunch of real racers and their car is quite cool. ( It makes it's weight in downforce at 100 mph) Mine makes 968lbs of lift at 223. IMO there is no reason why Ferrari couldn't put some effort into a Le Mans program. I would love to see a sportscar class at Le Mans with the following rules. You have to build and sell 500 of them. They must be street legal. You are only allowed to strip out interior, install roll cage and fire system, and racing exhaust. Class based of engine size. For me the New Daytona lacks a certian "je ne cais quoi." Regards
Jason, Thanks for the corrections. In referrence to those corrections Evans will be racing in both series this year as last year so I didn't list him. Same with Lammers though he should have been on the LeMans list. Not sure how I forgot JJ but yes he probable has the most F1 experience on the list. Barreta, Collard, and Felllows are professional racers no doubt, but not the best in the world in my opinion. They may be the best in sports cars but that is not the same as saying you won a CART or IRL title nor the same as saying you made it to F1 no matter how brief the spell. Oddly, I had forgotten that Baretta did test in F1 and I believe even did a race or two. Allan Menu and Rydell are touring car racers and while Menu had some success in the BTCC (with Williams ironically) he is not a world class driver when compared against some of the other touring car drivers. Rydell has never won a title in anything and has been a number two driver everywhere except perhaps Volvo. Sorry you have such a low opinion if IRL but they are the best of open wheel (non F1). I have a hard time buying your claim that Tony Kanaan, Helio Castroneves, and Scott Dixon don't compare to Ron Fellows (as much as I am a fan of Fellows). Are you telling me Baretta and Collard would turn down an IRL ride ? Doubtful given the money you get in IRL or even CART vs. driving sportscars. As far as NASCAR goes they are good drivers. You may not like NASCAR (as most on this site) but they are racers. Jimmie Johnson, Jurt Bush, Tony Stewart (won the Indy 500), and Bobby Labonte could win in any form or motorsports. They chose NASCAR for whatever reason. I agree with many that the Daytona Prototypes are not the most exciting nor the most modern technology but at the end of the day I watch the racers and the close racing. I watch F1 racing for the technology and cars (and the drivers as well). Regards, Jon
I am a little biased against the all-oval forms of racing, no doubt. I must admit to being really impressed with Mr. Tony Kanann in the ROC. Good points on your side, I agree.
Le Mans! And YES they need to get rid of the stupid chicaines! I've been there seven times and it's is thrilling every year.
Le Mans was never that. Even the first year, 1923, a lot of the cars were really prototypes (although they were a lot more closely based on production modeles than in the last 50 years). I think LeMans without prototpes would be far less interesting. As to Ferrari, I would rather see them racing sportscars than F1. F1 has never been as interesting to me as top level sportscar racing.
I think Le Mans 24 could have motor scooters going around and I would still love it more than anything else just because of the history. Daytona 24 is a distant 2nd on my list, but I still enjoy it and try to watch as much of the race as possible. Besides those ultimate events, I can't get too much into ALMS or Grand Am. I would rather spend my time watching World Challenge or any of the Euro/Australian touring car races, now that is exciting! Anyway, I've only attended ALMS races in person and have always thought Grand Am was not even in the same league. Despite my strong opinion against the prototype coupes to start, like many others they're growing on me. I think Grand Am hit on a good formula, even though the cars are ugly. They have record fields and great racing! I might just convert.
Stu I agree. I like prototypes as well. I just meant I think that's what the GT class should be. Best
LeMans lives and dies with the automakers who showcase the latest in prototype sportscar technology. The ACO has allowed automakers to skew the playing field so that the latest-greatest car can compete. Bentley's win just a few years ago was the product of the ACO mandating a 50 BHP reduction in existing R8's. The beneficiary was the Bentley LMP which easily outclassed what was then still the best sportscar in the world. Strange that Bentley did not come back to defend the title the next year. The expense of the program obviously played a factor. That and the fact that VAG got it's money's worth out of the program, gave Bentley a PR lift and still got to dominate the sportscar world after the Bentley's forced retirement. All of this with the ACO's blessing. Gone are the days of big factory participation because state of the art now has costs akin to F1. So the question beggs "Why do LeMans when you can do F1?" Jaguar made that decision, Mercedes, Renault, Toyota and most of all Ferrari have chosen the highest form of automotive competition. Sportscar away from LeMans is not the attention getter it was in the 60', 70's and 80's. Today, sportscar is so fragmented that the ACO has taken major steps not to support the sport itself but instead to save LeMans. That is what the LMES is all about. To stop the fragmentation by focusing the European world on one series built around one race. Americans who think that LeMans is still the world most important and most famous race are obviously in denial about Monaco and Daytona. F1 and NASCAR's biggest events are the most anticipated auto races in the world and have a larger viewing audience. F1 and NASCAR drivers are greater known than any sportscar driver. When the names of Schumacher and Gordon or Earnhardt are spoken, the name of Kristensen is not spoken in the same breath. The greateness of LeMans is a greatness that is still held onto by the sportscar faithful but is not respected or revered outside of that crowd. The Grand-American gamble was not much of a gamble at all. At it's zenith, the ALMS was still a vertual unknown in the US. The Panoz gamble of naming his series after LeMans did little to grow sportscar legions here in the US. It now has the incredible task of reclaiming the momentum that it had a few years ago. A momentum almost impossible to maintain given the fickle world of manufacturers who have little regard for the sport as a platform to showcase their technology. Zytek, Dallara, Judd, Raynard etc. are the household names of prototype sportscars now, not the glammour marques like Ferrari. Even Porsche, the cornerstone of the sport refuses to deal with the ACO vision and present a prototype to lead the exhibition that has become LeMans. There are people who believe that LeMans is tradition. That Daytona has become a departure from the traditionalist view of what sportscar is. I submit that LeMans is just as much a departure. LeMans is a place where the the great players used to be. The great men who made the Sarthe legend are all gone and so are their cars. All that is left really are the memories. You can now predict with reasonable certainty who will win there and we have. This is why the R8 does not claim a place in our romantic minds. It has no great foil to challenge it. Not in the way the Porsche 917 had the Ferrari 512. Daytona still remains a mystery. No winner is there is predictable. One race is pomp and circumstance and the other is nuts and bolts. Which is racing? That I guess is still in the eye of the beholder. _________________ For Nino
I have to strongly second that...The Australian touring car races are absolutely amazing to watch! Definitely the most entertaining series I see on speed.
LeMans is still a very big event. The participation of manufacturers goes in cycles and has done for decades - at the moment it is low but it has been so in the past and may well turn round again. It was only the late 90's that Mercedes, Porsche, toyota, Nissan, Mazda etc. all had works entries. In GT1 we now have Aston Martin & GM,with works efforts and cars from Ferrari and Lamborghini and hopefully in the near future a works entry from Maserati. Please also remember that the viewing public is not just America. NASCAR stars are not household names in most places outside America - even the very top drivers, nor is Daytona. Do you measure success by the TV audience or the Attendance. If you measure it by fan attendance then it is still one on the biggest races in the world as nearly 250,000 people attend every year - 100,000 of them travel from over countries. The problem is that endurance racing does not make good TV I go to LeMans every year and have done since the mid 80's and it is still to me the greatest motor racing event in the world to attend. An F1 grand Prix, Nascar race, touring car race etc. can get my attention for an hour or two, but for LeMans I spent a week with thousands of like minded people from every walk of life enjoying the atmosphere, the cars, the wine. LeMans is not about individual manufacturers or drivers it is an event and it is unique. If you like racing, cars, and a good time then come over one year for the whole event. Come down to Tetre Rouge at midnight or Arnage at dawn and then tell me it means nothing.
