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250 Cali Classiche Certification

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by R3 Motorsports, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    I think that the purpose of the thread was not to offer up information.

    It was to subtly advertise a shop’s supposed proximity to Classiche.

    It’s a gorgeous car, by the way.

    Matt
     
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  2. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    So... when did the car have open or covered headlights?
     
  3. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

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    Marcel posted a photo of the car...right click to save the photo. Note the file name (wink wink) Because you will want to know where to find the picture later.
     
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  4. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Right ............and here's another one. Taken 24 May 2000 at Toni Franco's in Maranello, Italy.

    Marcel Massini

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  5. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    I’ll do just that when I get to a computer. I’ve been using an iPad for the past twelve hours. Image searching is far less friendly.

    A serial number is, in my opinion as a user and not as a moderator, public knowledge. No one can hide it for any four-digit car. It’s futile to try.

    Matt
     
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  6. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    alloy body?
    comp car w external gas cap?
     
  7. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    This is why I’ve always advised clients, friends or anyone who cares about their personal privacy, that of their own or someone else’s property to think twice before posting anything on to interwebs or forums within in it, as there's always individuals who don’t seem to care about respecting privacy of others.

    Perhaps this is also be why some of the more highly regarded and knowledgeable members of these types forums appear to be much more guarded or at least very selective of details or photos they share in public.
     
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  8. 3COL

    3COL Karting

    Jun 12, 2017
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    Are there any pictures of it after the fire?

    How could it possibly gain Classiche?
     
  9. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    All pix posted here so far show car after the fire which was in 1980. New body created by Bachelli & Villa's Carrozzeria Auto Sport in Bastiglia (near Modena), new interior done by Luppi in 1994.

    Marcel Massini
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Correct. Some clients are very private and we need to respect that. I had a lets say unusual 250 here. Another client saw it and took a photo while I was away at the phone. I have no idea where the photo went from there but within 3 or so hours the owner was calling me wanting to know why his car was now on the internet.

    It is not our business to question their need for privacy, only to respect it.
     
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  11. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
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    So it's a completely fabricated body from 1993, it doesn't have the original engine, from what I have read, (Original engine is in a known car), and it is going to receive Classiche Certification. Correct?

    It was born with an alloy body, is the replacement body alloy?
     
  12. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Yes, born alloy and with outside fuel filler cap.
    Yes, original engine is in a 250 GT SWB Berlinetta.

    Marcel Massini
     
  13. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    Are you suprised?

    Classiche is a money grab and not an authenticator.

    Matt
     
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  14. C50

    C50 Formula Junior
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    What does one need to begin a classiche certified restoration? Chassis w VIN?
     
  15. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    The Bugatti folks use a 3/5 rule. It’s an original if any three of these are original: body, engine, transmission, rear differential, or front axle.

    I think Classiche uses a $£€¥ rule. If you can pay for the certificate, it gets certified.

    The two main sources of the chassis VIN we very easily counterfeited. The welded chassis plate can be replaced and re-welded, and the pop-riveted ID is currently sold with no stampings. If a shop can restore a car, it can fake those easily.

    I am not implying that R3 Motorsports is doing anything of the kind!

    Matt
     
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  16. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    For the OP - was the car, in fact, certified in the end? Or, has that not yet been determined?
     
  17. C50

    C50 Formula Junior
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    Very interesting
    Thanks for the information
     
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  18. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    #43 Rossocorsa1, Nov 22, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
    I'm very interested to learn what the final results are regarding this car. It would seem that it has an incredibly controversial history. From the little I know (just from this thread) the car seems to have no original components, other than the chassis. That said, many who know much more about these sorts of things have explained to me that it's actually the chassis, more than any other component, that defines the car. So, if that is somehow deemed original, I suppose certification is very possible, as long as everything else is "correct", albeit not "original". Personally, I never understood how a car without the original engine could pass muster, but, again, I've been told that even the engine is rather secondary to the chassis.

    As for Classiche, certainly, it has its vocal detractors (nothing wrong with that), and the program has its shortcomings, no doubt. Still, I never understood the whole "money grab" comment, which is a commonly used term with little substantive thought. If one believes this view, I suppose producing cars or having a licensing arm is a money grab for Ferrari as well. They are all business units that exist to make money, and I say more power to them. Ferrari is, and always has been, a for-profit company. This is nothing new. For those who love to wax romantically about the Enzo era days of old, let's not forget that Enzo loved making money, and he was one shrewd business man. If I sound like I'm criticizing Ferrari for being profit-centric, I'm not. I'm a capitalist and Ferrari is a fantastically successful business operation. Great for them. Why would I disparage them for creating a hugely successful business unit that clearly a very desired service? It's a voluntary program that nobody is forced to take part in.
     
  19. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    Two thoughts.

    One: I agree completely that it’s is the engine that makes a car a Ferrari. Almost anyone can reconstruct a frame or a body or interior. All were done for s/n 615. Almost no one can replicate the engine. Which is why 1615 borrowed its engine from another car.

    Two: Enzo clearly and explicitly sold road cars to fund racing cars. He was not grabbing money nor was he particularly interested in either licensing or protecting the Ferrari intellectual property. He also had no interest in any of his cars’ originality.

    Matt
     
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  20. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    #45 Marcel Massini, Nov 23, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
    Sometime between 1970 and 1975 original engine #1615 GT with internal engine number "68 F" was installed in 250 GT SWB Berlinetta chassis #2163 GT. This was done privately and not by the factory.

    Marcel Massini
     
  21. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    It's stated here that 1615GT had the engine from 250 GTE 4589GT installed. If this is the case, and it still has this engine, which would be a tipo 128 engine, Classiche Certification would be a non starter surely as it is not the correct engine tipo for this car? 1615GT is stated to have been born with a tipo 168 engine with 10mm valve lift and tipo 130 cams. Has a correct tipo 168 Comp. engine been fitted? Are Classiche making a new correct engine?
     
  22. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    I disagree
    last year I have been at an exhibition in koeln and there has been a company from italy making new 250 blocks ( try to find some photos, but don´t kniow where I have :( )
     
  23. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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  24. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    Kare, it appears your assumption of this discussion getting killed quickly was incorrect, while my thoughts on individuals lacking respect for privacy of or requests for it by others has been proven correct.
    I hope this will provide lessons to anyone entertaining ideas of sharing anything private.
    Any and all intentions, even if good hearted, can easily have severe unintended consequences on the interwebs, even on this forum, clearly proven by this thread and many before it.
     
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  25. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    #50 TTR, Nov 23, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
    This is one of the reasons why nobody wonders unattended in my shop or around clients property in it while in my care.
    Should a visitor request a chance to snap a picture of something in here and I were to allow it, depending on the subject I also make it clear whether or not they are allowed to share with anyone/anywhere.
    So far, it appears those agreements/requests made in past 3 decades have been honored.
     
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