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250 Cali Classiche Certification

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by R3 Motorsports, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

    Aug 16, 2010
    150
    Mostly New Hampshire USA
    Full Name:
    Alex
    While the engine is "the heart", notion of a "VIN" is generally associated with a chassis number. And certainly no one would think taking a 250 TR engine and stuffing it into a GTE would suddenly mean that the GTE was now identifiable as a TR...:)

    Have to admit though, that the issue of "what would Enzo have thought" is an interesting one. I've often wondered whether the substitution of a real Testarossa for the fake Daytona in Miami Vice was because the fake Ferrari annoyed Enzo, or because FNA saw a marketing opportunity...

    Would Enzo disdain the amount of attention lavished on "obsolete cars", would he be pleased that extra revenue for Ferrari could be extracted from people lavishing such attention, or would he be annoyed that Ferrari was pandering to such things while the F1 team was not winning championships?

    If Ferrari were cleaning up in F1, "disdain" and "pleased" might be possibilities. Since Ferrari is not cleaning-up it does seem quite possible that "annoyed" is more likely...
     
  2. 3COL

    3COL Karting

    Jun 12, 2017
    78
    Sorry, I mean are there any photos of the car after the fire, in it’s burned and damaged state?

    Thank you
     
  3. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    14,377
    Yes.

    Marcel Massini
     
  4. R3 Motorsports

    R3 Motorsports Karting
    Sponsor

    Sep 24, 2019
    55
    Van Nuys, CA
    Full Name:
    R3 Motorsports
    To respond to some of you about the history of the 250 Cal LWB, the thread really is not a debate or discussion about its history or which state of completion its in the Classiche procedure. We simply want to let you all know that we can offer assistance to those of you out there that are interested in this process. Thanks to all that understand that we do not disclose information regarding our cars or the owners. Simply put this is confidential information. Our clients privacy is of the utmost importance to R3 Motorsports.

    Having said all of this, the car is well known in the inner circle of brokers and collectors. For those of you in the know, it has its story and there are a lot of rumors that quite frankly are incorrect. Stories are a big part of what many of the old historical cars have and the Classiche process helps validate fact from fiction. The refreshing part of the Classiche procedure, is that through the process of investigation and working with documents from the factory, we have learned much about the car and it has been a very positive experience. I can see how some of the restoration experts out there can be intimidated by the process. After all there are a lot of cars out there that have had issues that in order to be Classiche'd need to be corrected,.. unfortunately this costs a lot of money and some car owners will argue that there version of the car is correct and that the Factory is wrong... this is can be complicated. If you have any questions about this process, please feel free to PM us,we are here to help.

    Regarding this stunning and very important 250 cab, it will go through the process and receive its Classiche certificate. Ultimately, our focus and goal is to bring every car back to its only correct state which can only be verified and validated by Ferrari. When she's ready, we will show it to the world in all her glory that it really deserves.
     
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  5. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    4,017
    Thanks for your response. I hope it all goes well for you and your client.
     
    tomc likes this.
  6. rbryson

    rbryson Rookie

    Jul 14, 2012
    26
    Ok I will bite how was this car able to get certified without the original engine in the period correct state?
     
    turbo-joe likes this.
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,949
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    He never said it has been certified.
     
  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,949
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall

    I know some of the people involved. Ferrari din't want that car on the air being represented as a Ferrari. So it should go into the annoyed column.
     
  9. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

    Aug 16, 2010
    150
    Mostly New Hampshire USA
    Full Name:
    Alex
    Glad to hear it.

    Indignation is far more admirable than greed. (And more in line with the mental image that I like to keep for the Enzo Era.)

    Mind you, I was at least pleased by the fact that they used real Daytonas for any scenes with the engine-compartment open...:)
     
  10. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

    Aug 16, 2010
    150
    Mostly New Hampshire USA
    Full Name:
    Alex
    Glad to hear it.

    Indignation is more admirable than greed. (And more in-line with the mental image I like to keep for the Enzo Era.)

    At least they used real Daytonas for any shots with the engine compartment open... :)
     
  11. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 29, 2007
    2,472
    Riverside, CA
    Full Name:
    Timo
    Looks like the previous, very ill-fitting windshield was already in the car back then and I assume its framework and trim were also butchered at time of its installation.
     
  12. Ananda

    Ananda Rookie

    Mar 19, 2011
    20
  13. Ananda

    Ananda Rookie

    Mar 19, 2011
    20
  14. Ananda

    Ananda Rookie

    Mar 19, 2011
    20
    This is my suspicion, and why I have not initiated a Classiche certification for my 250GT. Knowledgeable people know enough about these cars and do not need a "certification". Any experience regarding "value for money" welcome.
     
    Bryanp likes this.
  15. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    4,017
    I’ve never understood the “money grab” comment. It’s a voluntary service that Ferrari provides for passionate and interested owners, and, of course, they charge for the service. Why wouldn’t they? They are a business and they have something of value to sell. I’m a capitalist and I have no problem with it.

    Classiche Certification is a nice compliment to the provenance of your car. It comes elegantly presented in a beautiful book from the factory. Nobody is forcing anybody to get it. I think many who have issues with it don’t understand what is actually being certified. It verifies major systems and components as original or correct for your car. Classiche is not a concours award. I’ve attached the official criteria for anyone who wishes to understand it better.
     

    Attached Files:

    rob lay likes this.
  16. Rod Hersberger

    Jan 6, 2020
    1
    Full Name:
    Rod Hersberger
    No one says Cali in referring to these beautiful cars.
     
  17. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

    Aug 16, 2010
    150
    Mostly New Hampshire USA
    Full Name:
    Alex
    For a reasonably series-production car, I think the only real reason to do the Classiche is to have a hard-to-argue-with statement about the engine/trans/body-number/colors that the car left the factory with. Based on what I have seen, Ferrari is happy to give a RedBook to cars regardless of whether any of these match the current state of the car, but if all happen to be original, the RedBook would provide easy confirmation of what they should be.

    There no doubt are other ways to get all this same info, but the average buyer is likely to have the most confidence in what a RedBook says. I think the fact of the matter is that the average buyer is not that knowledgeable, and I've seen plenty of evidence that many advisors of the average buyer are not that knowledgeable either... :rolleyes: So I don't think it is unreasonable for some buyers (and sellers) to see value in the certification.

    I'm also under the impression that it is possible to get the build-sheet for your car if you are going through the process, and are willing to pay some fee (I imagine). I for one would love to get the sheet for my car, but was told that there was no way to "just get it" from the factory anymore.

    One thing that I have never understood is when I read claims that folks have actually modified a car to be *less* original, because the Classiche folks felt that some original detail did not match their expectations. Such a thing seems like madness to me...
     
  18. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    14,377
    TTBOMK currently a copy of the build sheets supplied by Classiche (AFTER the red book certification is done) costs US$ 3'000. That's on top of the red book certification costs (which varies on model up to 25 Grand etc). A single letter from Classiche just confirming the original colors (if known at all, not always the case) costs US$ 1'000. Plus taxes. All to be supplied via the authorized Classiche dealer in your area.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  19. lancia

    lancia Formula Junior

    Jan 18, 2004
    345
    Marcel, From what you have observed, are the build sheets supplied today via the purchase described photocopies or scans of the real, original period build sheets, or just the information re-presented in a modern Classiche format? Thanks, Chris
     
  20. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    14,377
    Scans of the real old ones BUT oftentimes/in many cases (not always) they do blank off the internal numbers (such as internal engine block number, gearbox number and rear axle number).

    Marcel Massini
     
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  21. SAFE4NOW

    SAFE4NOW F1 Rookie
    Sponsor Owner

    Aug 25, 2004
    3,755
    Dallas Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve F
    From what I know, it does not have to be THE engine or driveline part that it left the factory with, it just has to have a period correct, to spec replacement part.

    Similar to modern day, if we replace an engine on a 599, it wont be the one that the car came from the factory with, but its replacement would be period correct, built to spec.
    NOW, it does have to be documented and confirmed, but if correct , shouldn't keep it from passing.

    Isn't that why Ferrari ended up supplying 2 black TR's ( painted white for the show ) ... to keep the replica from poorly representing the marque?


    There was a time when we could request , build sheet ( $625-$1250+ , letter confirming original color and number $875, technical data sheet $1250, heck even a metallographic test for $2500+ ) but rules have changes and the factory has become more stringent in its processes.

    If you want to PM me the chassis, I will ask and see if they give me a thumbs up or not... cant hurt to ask.



    Of the scans I have had in hand, I do not remember having anything redacted , maybe it was due to the examples I requested, didn't require any?

    S
     
  22. lancia

    lancia Formula Junior

    Jan 18, 2004
    345
    Thank you Marcel
     
  23. Lowell

    Lowell Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Apr 17, 2005
    928
    Santa Fe, NM
    Full Name:
    Lowell Brown
    [QUOTE="SAFE4NOW, post: 147297576, member: 11545"
    There was a time when we could request , build sheet ( $625-$1250+ , letter confirming original color and number $875, technical data sheet $1250, heck even a metallographic test for $2500+ ) but rules have changes and the factory has become more stringent in its processes.
    S[/QUOTE]

    There was a time when you could get the build sheet for free.
     
    SAFE4NOW likes this.
  24. Admiral Goodwrench

    Admiral Goodwrench Formula Junior

    Mar 2, 2005
    427
    Santa Fe, New Mexico
    Full Name:
    Robert Phillips
    Yep, I did in 1984 at the office in Modena and it did not cost anything but a 15 minute wait.

    Best regards,

    Robert
     

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