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250 GT SWB 'revival'

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by DanNE, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,387
    #26 PAUL500, Apr 20, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
    The cache and hence value in these particular replica's is the fact the chassis number is from an original Ferrari 250 series car, I don't see GTO deviating from that with their examples.

    Lack of suitable donors, now that values have risen significantly in recent years even for basket cases is more than likely why they are developing their ground up new build Moderna, as it will start to not make financial sense to use a restorable 250 series car going forward into the future.

    The 250 GTE is no longer regarded as the chunky ginger step child in the classic Ferrari line up, like it used to be value wise.

    However if genuine SWB supply dries up as they get hoarded as assets and or prices continue to rocket then so will the asking price of the copies, so those offended by the use of nicer 250 series cars simply need to buy them up instead and restore them!
     
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  3. bakes17

    bakes17 Karting

    Sep 25, 2012
    75
    UK
    I own one. They are around £650k in UK and sell before they hit the market. New build around £800k.
    Several of the cars racing at Goodwood are actually GTO or have their engines.
    They are a great bit of kit and you get a genuine 1960’s V12 Ferrari driving experience otherwise not available for sub £10m.
    I also have a Superformance GT40 continuation.
    In addition to an F40, and several real Ferraris.
    Several Ferrari collectors have or have had one.
    Based off a car that’s already a gonner


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  4. RamsHmb

    RamsHmb Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 22, 2017
    575
    California
    I am seriously considering it. Told them it has to be an unrestorable car and 250. I drive my cars, 812 GTS has 5k miles, Roma close to the same, others regularly used . I can’t stomach the idea of spending 10m on a car and Then driving the hell out of it, let alone racing. I wouldn’t buy a singer version of a Ferrari but GTO is working to recreate a body and car and that are as close as possible to original…not a resto mod. If it keeps that glorious Columbo v12 on the road…I say all the power to them. Didn’t Enzo say that he sells us an engine and throws in a body for free….well, I am going to upgrade the body and use the motor to its fullest. Plus…didn’t scagliette build a bunch of these bodies. Maybe it’s just more old school when you would to a coach builder. Either way, I see it as a tribute as long as they aren’t dismantling sound cars. And for what I am getting as an estimate for a donor….it’s in really bad shape. And as a foot note GTO has been restoring many priceless Ferrari’s for years and they have noted, on some of the more expensive, they have taken the engine out and crated it only to put in a different engine that can blow and the world won’t end. Seems to be a bit of the other side of the sword. My 2 cents
     
  5. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    30,121
    Full Name:
    Joe Mansion
    From what i remember they can build on nothing at all other than a Ferrari identity so yes it could be on a Mondial or 308 chassis. Everything else would be build from new so no GTE or PF coupe butchered or reborn as a SWB.
     
  6. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,193
    Dubai, UAE
    Maybe an odd (but perhaps not a new) question - to have the original VIN applied, is there a specific part of the donor car that is needed? Can someone remove the frame to create and register a replica in one jurisdiction, while another person buys the complete body and uses it to commission a frame in another with the same VIN?

    Next to my warehouse where I store my cars a neighbour has dumped a complete 365GT body outside near the trash where it has been sitting for almost 2 years…
     
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  8. -K1-

    -K1- Formula Junior

    Jul 10, 2008
    587
    Lago di Como, Italy
    Full Name:
    Ken
    Its a total legal mine field and legal challenges and uncertainties abound. The legality of the whole thing would concern me as I understand the rules. For the same money - say GBP 800 K why not get a real Daytona and a real Dino.
     
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  9. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,387
    It will all depend in which country the car is built/end up

    First things first, the person must have legal ownership of the remains of the donor from which the VIN is used, however there is no real control of someone else claiming the same VIN in another country if that countries rules are slacker.

    In the UK the VIN can only be applied to an identical replacement chassis to that of the donor, in order to keep the donors registration details the same and allow the car to be used on UK roads. If the new chassis is in any way different, the VIN number could still be used but the donors manufacturer name would have to be removed from the registration document and the car has to go through a rigorous inspection process known as SVA.. A significant element of the donor must also be used in the new car, its based on a point system for engine, gearbox, suspension etc.

    i.e a donor 250 GTE could give its VIN to a new build SWB but the name of Ferrari would have to be replaced on the V55 registration document with something else, typically the name of the builder, so in order for a GTO engineering SWB copy to be registered and used in the UK using a GTE donor, it should really state GTO engineering 250 SWB instead of Ferrari 250 GTE,

    However if the new car is based on a 250 GTE etc donor and that new car once built then goes abroad without being registered in the UK, then its down to the authorities of the new owners actual country to define what the car is, based on their own domestic rules.
     
  10. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    17,053
    One of the 250 SWB Revival cars built in the UK uses chassis number 92457 from 348 TS..........
    Several other 250 SWB Revival cars built in the UK use chassis numbers of 330 GT 2+2's...........
    Not to mention the many 250 GT PF Coupés and 250 GTE's that have been massacred and butchered.........

    Marcel Massini
     
  11. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,387
    Which they have every legal right to do, as long as the owner of the copy car is also the legal owner of the VIN and the remains of the donor.

    However the important distinction is when the cars are then registered for road use, and what they are registered as in that country.

    Are any of these UK built cars UK road registered Marcel?, if so and you know the registration numbers then there are a number of publically accessible UK government databases to check what the new version has been registered as.

    I wont know the legal side of all the non UK jurisdictions to be able to comment if the cars are now out of the UK.
     
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  13. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,193
    Dubai, UAE
    Wait, they used a dead 348 frame to create a 250 SWB Revival? Wow, even I may be able to afford the donor car.
     
  14. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,387
    I very much doubt any element of the 348 apart from its Ferrari VIN will have been used in such a copy, which in the UK would mean it could only be used as a track car etc, as it would not meet the law for road use, as a significant % of the 348 will not be present, as we all know the cars are night and day different in all aspects.

    The car could have gone on what is known as a q plate here in the UK, which is a built up vehicle of unknown origin. This is mainly for cheap kit cars, no way would anyone spend £800k on a copy then slap a q plate on it.
     
  15. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    17,053
    Yes, I know of at least twelve (12) 250 SWB Replicas built in UK and registered on UK plates. I have all those chassis numbers and also the UK license plates.

    As for that 348 TS which became a "250 SWB" it is S/N 92457 and has UK plates "SIW 250".

    Marcel Massini
     
  16. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,387
    Certainly an interesting one.

    The 348 donor was off the road or outside of the UK for a long time, and once it was put back on the road the clocks reverted from mph to kph and seem to have started again at zero, so this must have been done at conversion.

    Its still officially recorded as a Ferrari 348 so does not appear to have gone through an SVA test as a heavily modified car, and is also still listed as a Ferrari, which could only have happened if it retained vast amounts of the 348 donor.

    Given that there is no way a mid engine, monocoque chassis Ferrari could transform into a front engined ladder/tube chassis with no major modifications then at some point in time this example will have its UK registration documents revoked, probably when a clued up MOT tester is required to inspect the car, or a canny police officer does an anpr check.
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  17. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    17,053
    SIW 250 was last seen in Hong Kong with that UK plate.

    Marcel Massini
     
  18. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,387
    It was last in the UK for its MOT in Sept 2019 and officially still is, as it is on sorn rather than having an export marker.

    I imagine the replica had its first MOT on that date and was then shipped out of the UK but never properly recorded as such with the dvla.

    No real sense using a 348 donor VIN though as nothing from that car will be contained within the 250 copy, unless it was purely to be able to get it into Hong Kong as a Ferrari for registration purposes over there.
     
  19. -K1-

    -K1- Formula Junior

    Jul 10, 2008
    587
    Lago di Como, Italy
    Full Name:
    Ken
    Ferrari 308 = 2 door 3 litre Ferrari. Similar same?
     
  20. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,193
    Dubai, UAE
    I confess to being tempted by the 250 TR Revival. I could find a 348 or Mondial wreck in Italy with title and "build" it into a 250TR. The question remains what the Italian Authorities would do when I tried to obtain a plate. I understand a few replicas exist in Italy, but they were probably built on 250 or 330 donor chassis.
     
  21. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,387
    These are not kit cars, you do not provide an actual donor as such, just its paperwork. I imagine the builders would sell you a complete car with no VIN, Ferrari badges or ID whatsoever and it would be up to you to get it road legal in whatever country you live in, and call it/register it as whatever you want based on the rules of that country.
     
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  22. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 15, 2012
    24,157
    Texas/Colorado
    Full Name:
    George Pepper
    One of the members here is thinking of having a GTO Engineering SWB built, but he posted about it in the subscribed forums. There is no donor car. They are built from scratch. Even the Colombo V12 is made new. Way out of my league, money wise, but the closest projects I can think of would be the Superformance Ford GT continuation cars (But they are NOT continuation cars either).

    I think one would be a blast for track events, so you could have the driving experience without a 10MM+ ride.

    I'm about convinced to get a continuation Ford GT myself, but one that has already been built and sorted.
     
  23. RamsHmb

    RamsHmb Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 22, 2017
    575
    California
    So I am also moving ahead on one. I am told there is a donor car and that is where the vin and motor will come from. I did ask that I can approve the donor as I want one beyond repair. I know that is a hot button for many, including myself, but there is even a very interesting reference point in the latest TOFM about no salvageable cars. The story goes.... Piero Ferrari decided he wanted to get a 330 and restore it since it was one of his fathers favorite. Apparently Enzo owned three and during the search Piero found one his fathers old cars but unfortunately, the car was beyond repair and he passed. My point being simply, some of these cars are beyond repair and if so, why not reimagine them and bring the engine back to life. I plan to use mine on the track and the road often. I put many miles in my modern f cars and plan to do the same here. How many of the original SWB’s are still being tracked...my guess is very few. With that said, I would love to be proven wrong.
     
  24. BJK

    BJK F1 Rookie

    Jul 18, 2014
    2,863
    CT
  25. bamaman

    bamaman Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 27, 2015
    225
    Mobile Alabama
    Full Name:
    William M (B.J.) Lyon, Jr.
    To each his own. After owning 250 GTO 4757, I commissioned two 100% Ferrari rebody/recreation 250 GTO series one coupes built by Greg Jones of Stuart Florida in the late 80's. For the first, I swapped a rusted out donor 25OGTE (but used its 3 liter engine) for a chassis from a 250 Pininfarina coupe which had been modified to GTO spec (shortened by 100 mm I recall) and rebodied in Cuneo Italy with an aluminum GTO body. The second car was a 330 GTE chassis similarly rebodied and its 4 liter engine. Both chassis bore the original unaltered chassis numbers. Engines were updated tp GTO specs with the correct six dual Webers. Greg did fantastic work and both cars were pristine works of art. This is the only way to own, use and enjoy a GTO as a non billionaire--truly great experience IMHO.
     
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