250 GTO 4399 Crashed at Goodwood Revival.

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by miurasv, Sep 9, 2017.

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  1. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3
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    Certainly not in the slightest
     
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  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    I respect your viewpoint but all racing is entertainment. A large percentage of the Goodwood spectators are real classic car enthusiasts and I would guess that a lot more than 10% will care if they are told they are seeing a real period car and not a replica. They pay good money to see the real thing and to then learn that they have only seen a replica they would understandably feel short changed and disappointed. Of course it's up to the owner of a real car such as a 250 GTO, 250 SWB or Lightweight E Type if they want to race the real thing or not but I do think that a solution may lie in them bringing the real car for people to see and then have them enter an accurate continuation/replica for the race.
     
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  3. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    I believe, contrary to some assessments here, that if "people" were seriously concerned or feeling betrayed by seeing replicas (or whatever one wants to call them) at vintage racing venues, they wouldn't go and pay to attend/spectate.
    OTOH, I guess even interweb experts need a hobby and perhaps letting off steam about cars/possessions of others at keyboard is sufficient to some.
     
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  4. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

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    Is it too difficult for an owner to simply say what a certain car is?
     
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  5. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #130 miurasv, Sep 22, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
    As the official line seems to be that replicas are not allowed at Goodwood, or at least that's what the line is for the benefit of the paying spectators, then the owners of the replicas at Goodwood can't publicly declare them as such.

    In reality it seems they are allowed but the time has come for transparency to prevail. The replicas are interesting in themselves. Perhaps to officially allow them will raise the standard of the replicas raced and scrutinised to conform to the original specification.
     
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  6. Ferrari27

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    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Yes! Absolutely! No replicas at Goodwood!

    Cars that no longer exist, like a 1961 156F1 or a 1957 801, are different as everyone knows that none of the originals are still around.

    Apart from those you will never see a replica at Goodwood!

    This is not new. How much publicity was there earlier this year about a 250 GTO/64 driven with such style at the Goodwood Members Meeting?

    Just look at these beauties from the revival in 2002. All totally original I am certain. Would probably have a Red Book in the glove box now.

    I apologise for the quality but I only take lots of good photos of the real cars.

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  8. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan Formula 3
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    The 250GTO64 in your pictures was listed as a replica, although I think the actual word was evocation In the entry list . I believe it is 250GTE 3103?
     
  9. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior
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    Does anyone know the full story about the Bryn Williams GTO replica(s)? s/n 4645 was a RHD UK 250 GTE, first registered as '7 FYO'. Comments on this forum suggest it was at some point rebodied as a '62-style GTO replica. Its old reg plate, '7 FYO' is now on a '64-style replica GTO as above, which I understand is s/n 3103 - a LHD US 250 GTE (converted to RHD in the process, it seems).

    Has anyone got photos of the chassis stamping to support that the '64-style car is indeed 3103? And does anyone know the whereabouts of s/n 4645, or have photos of it after being rebodied?

    -Ed
     
  10. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    3103 was for sale at Fantasy Junction. See here: http://www.fantasyjunction.com/cars/1835-Ferrari-250%2064%20GTO%20Recreation-Tipo%20128/F%203.0%20Litre%2012-Cylinder

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  11. Tobi

    Tobi Rookie

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    When talking about GTO replicas in general, this might also be interesting. I saw these cars at Goodwood 2016. The first is a cheap replica as stated on the advert sheet. The second one was parking at the visitor's parking lot. And I don't think a real GTO would stand there ;)
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  12. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior
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    The first one is a Datsun (as it probably says on the poster). The second one is Alastair Caldwell's replica on 330 GT s/n 6743.

    -Ed
     
  13. stevewak

    stevewak Rookie

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    Good points. When the Bryn Williams 1964 GTO replica appeared it was clearly labelled a recreation, justified by the adjacent GTO Tour that took the real cars away and they wanted to have a 'GTO' in the race. The Members meeting is for Members' cars, so if they have replicas it's been explained to me that they can race those (GT40s, Cobras, E-types).

    Another factor is if the owner has a significant real car (SWB/GTO/GT40) it is (sort of) reasonable that he can enter a recreation of it.

    An argument could be made to make the replicas more original (tyre width, engine size, number of carbs) and mix it up a bit without the same cars/drivers every year. A photo of a DB4 GT or SWB - say - in 1962 should be the reference point, even for replicas. The St Mary's Trophy is good fun but some of the cars are OTT.
     
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  15. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    so Mr March is talking bollox here then "I caught up with Lord March, master of this particular motoring Mecca, to ask him if he would allow any of the six new Lightweights to race at the iconic Revival or the even more exclusive Members’ Meeting. His answer was immediate. It was clear he didn’t need to think about it. ‘No’, left little room for doubt. He sees these new cars as replicas and replicas simply don’t make the grid at Goodwood"

    I don't get it. REPLICAS DON'T MAKE IT TO THE GRID.
     
  16. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan Formula 3
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    The hint in the requirements for the Kinrara trophy run on the Friday evening is that the cars are supposed to be in as close as possible to period spec, and it worked well last year with a good mix if DB4 GT, SWBs and E Types at the front. This year it became all about the E Types once again.
     
  17. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Question
    1) no replicas on the grid (as Lord March said)
    2) period spec (requirements)

    Answer
    1) replicas on the grid (lots!)
    2) non period spec

    GR is nothing but a show of (most) replicas and non period spec race cars.

    To fool or not to fool....that is the question. :)
     
  18. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #141 miurasv, Sep 24, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
    As the real cars are too valuable to race now, and the originality and history of them needs to be preserved and not damaged in racing, I think that accurate replicas should be allowed and to race, especially by those that own an original.

    Actually, Ferrari, like Jaguar and Aston Martin, should make a series of continuation 250 SWB, GTO, LM and P4s so that people can enjoy an AUTHENTIC Ferrari replica that is a genuine fully commissioned Ferrari product rather than the fake aspects of butchered real lesser Ferraris that we now see to make them into something they are not or replicas that have nothing of Ferrari in them at all.

    Those with the means can have a TOTALLY AUTHENTIC and GENUINE Ferrari replica and the public gets to see them displayed and racing. Everybody wins.
     
  19. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #142 miurasv, Sep 24, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
    But then again, if made, these authentic Ferrari replicas could or would be so sought after that their value would instantly become so much higher than the purchase price that racing them wouldn't happen anyway.
     
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  20. Tobi

    Tobi Rookie

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    That's right. And it costs the same to repair a damaged replica as an original GTO if these replicas are rebodied 250sfor example. You can restore them both completely for some good money as it has been done a lot of times already when the GTOs have been raced. I think only an original car that has never been damaged or restored is worth to be preserved. Any others can still be raced. That's what they've been built for.
     
  21. TTR

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    #144 TTR, Sep 24, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
    I wonder if some self-proclaimed interweb experts would be better off ensuring transparency for the benefit of the paying vintage racing event spectators by quitting their keyboard whining and either go buy original cars to race with at given events or better yet, organize their own events allowing only cars they deem worthy of those spectators they so deeply seem to show concern for.

    And while at it, perhaps they could advocate requirements for any and all vendors at these events to offer only authentic gear and stuff. No more reproduction (= FAKE) memorabilia, parts, products, etc. Even food & drinks vendors would have to prove their ingredients & supplies dating to be same vintage the event is said to represent. And what about spectators themselves ?

    But wait a minute, maybe I should take all that back. Wouldn't recreating vintage racing events themselves present a FAKE atmosphere by default !?! Oh boy, I'm glad these are not my problems to solve.

    Who knows, this might even help to launch a successful world wide campaign to ban any and all active participation on automotive websites by those who don't currently own authenticated original car make/model that a specific website is dedicated for.
    This, again, would be just for the protection of those innocent souls who may view (passively spectate?) any such site and could mistake any posts by non-owners or other FAKES for real experience.
    To gain access, car owners, whom BTW are also expected to be original ones for the given vehicle, must prove authenticity by providing extensive supply of current and period photographs, preferably pre-marked with multi-color arrows, lines and text indicating any potentially questionable discrepancy such pictures may present.

    Maybe that brave new, perfect world is only few clicks away...
     
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  22. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    We get it, you don't care if there are replicas at Goodwood or not. Why the condescending attitude towards those who do care about originality? If you don't like the topic, just stay away. Noone's forcing you to read this thread.
     
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  23. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    #146 Timmmmmmmmmmy, Sep 24, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
    I think you and TTR hit the nail on the head. The world would appear to be made up of a handful of passionate fans in each field which is a good thing. What is disturbing is that the same passion that drives each of us to follow these threads so easily drives us to jump the shark. Goodwood owe's neither us nor fans any more than a show and that they do very well and Lord March and the organisers know that you can somewhat please the handful of trainspotters that always attend these things (and they will never be totally agreed as the threads on 5899/6045, 0846 and 0384 and so many others help prove). On the other hand you can offer a show which involves hard and fast racing by cars that look authentic and sell out every event with the vast majority of attendees neither aware nor concerned that it is a facade.

    As for owners of truly historic cars there is always going to be the debate of what to do with your car and why not show it and drive it on the road or demonstration events as the risk is low. Racing a car is totally different especially if there are cars that are complete fakes and totally expendable (whether declared or not), this especially important when the red mist descends and winning becomes all. The argument then returns to the idea that perhaps these events should be limited to demonstration runs or formulated races that are merely a facade of the real thing and if this came to pass would anyone be happy? So I for one am realistic and completely happy with the current event and as others having suggested if you aren't happy, go join the local car club and start agitating for whatever change you want but as and when the event returns to being just another dull club racing event and both the big show and crowds disappear don't be surprised.
     
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  24. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    If it helps to get more genuine cars back on track I'd be all for it. And less crowdy is a bonus :)

    With regards to the topic of this thread, 4399 is quite a unique Ferrari. There's literally no other like it (the other 64 GTOs are all different in details and livery). So to me it's a bit more special to see this car out and about than say a generic SWB (if you could call it that!) I have absolutely no reason to complain about the replica of this car. The only thing I'd like to see is some honesty about what it is and isn't. If that is asking too much of the Goodwood organisation, then I guess they *are* trying to mislead the spectators. Some don't care, like TTR, some do. To each his own.
     
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  25. ERA

    ERA Rookie

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    There was a continuation Lightweight at the Members Meeting. Most GT40s, Cobras etc... are continuation. Same applies in Spa 6 hours.
    Peter Auto said also no to those but if Jaguar had to be one of Le Mans Classic sponsors, what would be their attitude?

    The original GTOs are now to be seen in Florence for the GTO Tour today!! ;)

    Picture by Andreas Birner
     

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  26. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Is GTO 4399 there on the Tour with an undamaged RHS body? :)
     
  27. stevewak

    stevewak Rookie

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    With respect, the E-types raced in Europe including Goodwood are either official 2016 Jaguar factory Continuation cars (I would be surprised) or regular 1960s car modified to modern historic racing spec but, for LM Classic etc, probably having racing papers. You could make these faster than original (or Continuation) L/Ws and they cost say £250k. Crosthwaite and Gardiner engine, etc. To be fair, some of the fastest 1960s racing E-types were not proper L/Ws and many cars today have some sort of link with the past ("the famous ex-Bloggs E-type..." but are totally rebuilt to better-than-new.

    The GT40s, 250 LMs, Lola T70 MkIIIs, Lister-Jaguars, Shelby Cobra Roadsters and Daytona Coupes are modern replicas in the literal sense with sort-of period-spec parts, but built new today. A Superformance Ford GT40 can be had for £150k, is ready to race and accepted at many events, the Gelscoe cars perhaps £350k?? Painted an original ivory, pale green or blue and with dull alloys and proper Dunlop tyres few would know they are replicas.

    The Aston DB4 GTs and Zagatos, Ferrari SWBs and GTOs at least have a 1960s chassis (250 GTE/DB4 etc) by that manufacturer as a base.

    The wonder of historic events was that you never knew what might be there - a restored 750 Monza, the 1962 Le Mans winner, or something. This is becoming harder to find nowadays, and 'fantasy' cars now appear that everyone loves and finds amusing have replaced them. Perhaps started with the Alvis Grey Lady. and continued with the Edwardian aero-engined specials.
     
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