250 GTO 4399 Crashed at Goodwood Revival.

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by miurasv, Sep 9, 2017.

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  1. stevewak

    stevewak Rookie

    Jul 31, 2006
    And another thing...

    Having been to the first Revival in 1998, where the cars were original and driven by brilliant drivers including Stirling Moss (DBR1), Martin Brundle (D-type) and John Surtees (GTO), the event's attraction was divided (for me) equally between unbelievable cars and stellar driving, way out of the skillset of the average historic racer. This has been maintained to the extent that no-one would think of a drive at the meeting today (should they obtain an entry) without really knowing what they are doing. It is a very fast and unforgiving course, let alone the embarrassment of having one's lap times compared with a multiple-Le Mans winner's...

    A by-product, therefore, has been the reluctance of the well-heeled owners to fancy having a go themselves, and in later years risk their now $$$$$ car to a pro with a sometimes "Oh, sorry about that..." attitude.

    The racing is still fantastic, and it's a genuine 'step back in time' to the days of Roy Salvadori, Graham Hill, Jack Sears etc going flat out for 20 laps, but something had to give: originality.

    Faced with the choice of trundling amateurs in original, highly polished and over-restored cars and a field of super-quick pros in modern evocazione, driving them like in 1963, I'd prefer the latter. It's the degree of modification that's under discussion. Sadly, the news about Santa Claus has now hit the nursery.

    Out of interest, a year or so ago I compared Phil Hill's Daytona Coupe times in period with today's: not a lot of difference. The SWBs today are WAY faster, though.
    miurasv and sperry like this.
  2. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2004
    Full Name:
    Tom Wiggers
    'The Aston DB4 GTs and Zagatos, Ferrari SWBs and GTOs at least have a 1960s chassis (250 GTE/DB4 etc) by that manufacturer as a base"

    Most SWBs are all new. Some have a cut GTE frame, but most a new one from scratch.
    Engine's: some have a GTE mod to SWB comp spec engine, but many have a new made engine.
    GTOs: same
    512s/m: same
    250LM: same
    We might see some very interesting P cars as well in the future....not only Piper's

    There are more copies out there....most do not even know. Guess the number? Double that!

    Let the guys enjoy their replica's/continuations, but let the spectators know; many real F enthousiast out there that come to GR and want to see THE REAL McCOY
    Bryanp, miurasv and stevewak like this.
  3. ERA

    ERA Rookie

    Dec 21, 2015
    Old debate... Those who still races their original cars are quite brave knowing their value and the weak probability to win against the whole new Roelofs or Pearsons Engineering Ferraris...
  4. Philip

    Philip Rookie

    Oct 17, 2004
    I think there’s a considerable arrogance at play to enter and race what purports to be a genuine, original, rare and historically-interesting car in a meeting which is ostensibly all about originality and period-authenticity.

    I understand the reluctance to race what has essentially become a priceless museum piece, but hiding the fact that it’s a fake from the mugs paying a fortune to have the wool pulled over their eyes is more than a bit rich.
    clive beecham, ERA, tomgt and 2 others like this.
  5. wpbekker

    wpbekker Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2006
    Full Name:
    Wouter Bekker
  6. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
    This video shows Chris Harris driving the 250 LM in front of the GTO at that corner where the GTO crashes. The cockpit video shows Chris didn't weave while braking and kept a straight line:

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  8. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2004
    Full Name:
    Tom Wiggers
  9. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2017
    One should make a picture of 4399GT and 4399GT side by side :)
  10. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 29, 2007
    Riverside, CA
    Full Name:
    Having been a life long, passionate enthusiast, hobbyist and professional involved with vintage cars for about 40 years (and counting) and pretty much on daily bases, I find some comments here, like the one above, just silly, if not quite "a bit rich".

    I think anyone attending, especially if just spectating, any "historic/vintage" racing event like G.R. and "demands" authenticity seem to forget that these events themselves are "recreations" (a.k.a. FAKE !?!), merely organized as entertainment for both the entrants and spectators, nothing more, nothing less and most in attendance probably understands this.
    I also seriously doubt "the mugs"(???) are spending "a fortune"(!?!) to be there and it's highly unlikely some one is forcing them to attend anyway.

    What's next ? Some here start insisting "for historical accuracy or authenticity" that only cars which competed against each other at some specific in-period event should be allowed and be required to finish (or DNS/DNF ?) in same order as "the race" they're purporting to "recreate". Oh yeah, and at the end of the event, each should have all accurate damages, etc. they endured during the "original" event or some other similar nonsense.
    elnouk and Timmmmmmmmmmy like this.
  11. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    Yes, entertainment and hard racing would probably have a really negativ impact just with 'originals'. But why not transparency about what is real and what is not?
    dflett, LVP488, miurasv and 1 other person like this.
  12. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2017
    Demanding authenticity might be inappropriate indeed, but politely asking for honesty does not seem unreasonable to me.
    Honesty is such a lonely word, though.
    dflett likes this.
  13. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    May 8, 2008
    Sydney, Australia
    Full Name:
    Chanh Lê Huy
    I think the main issue here is not whether some of these cars are recreation or the real deal. The issue is that if these cars are recreations, they should be identified as such, and not made believe that they are the real thing.
    dflett likes this.
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  15. ApeGen

    ApeGen Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jun 3, 2004
    Hong Kong
    Full Name:
    Not trying to pick a fight here. However, the traveling cost was not a small sum for me and my girlfriend when we went all the way from Hong Kong to attend the 2016 Revival. It did bothered me a bit after discovering this thread about the originality of the cars, even though the event and races were awesome to say the least. Now every time I look back at the photos I have taken, there is a sense of doubt in the authenticity of the cars. My girlfriend knows nothing about cars and couldn't care less about them, yet she was furious when I told her about it and felt cheated. Just sharing the impact it has on me.

    I think there is nothing wrong with racing recreations for entertainment; but least they can do is put some sort of disclaimer stating that "some of the cars may not be true original samples".
    LVP488, dflett, miurasv and 1 other person like this.

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