250 LM Engine Tipos 210 and 211: What are the differences?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by miurasv, Dec 14, 2017.

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  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Some 250 LMs are said to have tipo 210 engines and others are tipo 211. What are the differences?

    Thanks in advance for any replies.
     
  2. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Steve: That is a great question. I do not know the answer, but upon examination of Build Sheets, the crankshafts, blocks and pistons are different between the two versions. Everything else, motorwise, seems the same,
     
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  3. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    What serial numbers have these two different engines? Are they interspersed, seemingly a running change or unique?
     
  4. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #4 miurasv, Dec 15, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
    If Barchetta is correct they are interspersed with more tipo 210 engines at the start of the ascending chassis number range, with more tipo 211 engines overall, but the last one, 8165, is said to be tipo 210.

    Also I wonder what tipo the initial 3 litre engine was in 5149?
     
  5. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 Veteran
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    I think the tipo 210 is the smaller version with a smaller bore of 73mm.
     
  6. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    F1Tommy: No, both versions have 77mm bores. They use the same piston rings.
     
  7. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 Veteran
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    I saw that in the Ferrari 250 Lemans Berlinetta by David Piper. They have two engine sizes, with the tipo 211 having the 77mm bore and a second version the smaller 73mm bore.
     
  8. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    F1Tommy: Factory carburetor specs are the same for both versions. This is a pretty good indication that they are the same displacement.
     
  9. Sempre_gilles

    Sempre_gilles Formula Junior

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    To add to the confusion, I have tipo 210 fitted in the 250 P. Correct???
     
  10. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Type 210 = 250 P and 250 LM 3.0 liter with 73 x 58.8.
    Type 211 = 250 LM 3.3 liter with 77 x 58.8.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  11. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #11 miurasv, Dec 18, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
    Thank you, Marcel.

    The build sheets for 250LM 5909, as shown in your 250LM book, state Motore tipo 210 on the main front page and tipo 210 on the top of the Foglio Montaggio Motore which also states Anello tenuta ACT+ROS BORGO 77 which I take to mean piston ring size as 77mm (???) which is for the 3.3 litre 275 engine size. The same sheet also states the Teste cilindri which is the cylinder head as tipo 211.

    Build sheets for 250 LM 6119 as shown below, which I assume has a 275 engine, also state the Motore tipo as 210.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  12. DWR46

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    My "opinion" on this is that ALL 250LM's, except for the first car, were originally constructed with 3.3 liter motors. We know that Build Sheets are full of errors. Perhaps it is possible to install 77mm liners in a Tipo 210 block. I have not personally had a Type 210 motor apart, but I have had a Type 211 motor apart. I can tell you that a standard 275 head gasket does not fit a Type 211 motor without some minor "adjustments" of the various passageways through the gasket.
     
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  13. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Cover pages of 250 LM build sheets show:

    5843 = 211.
    5891 = 211.
    5895 = 211.
    5899 = 211.
    5901 = 211.
    5903 = 211.
    5905 = 211.
    5907 = 210.
    5909 = 210.
    6023 = 210.
    6025 = 211.
    6045 = 210.
    6053 = 211.
    6107 = 211.
    6119 = 210.
    6173 = 211.
    6217 = 211.
    6233 = 211.
    6313 = 211.
    6321 = 211.

    AGAIN: This is just what is mentioned on the cover of the build sheet, not on the actual engine page or on the dyno test page of the regular 8 page build sheet.

    Factory build sheets are - exactly what DWR46 said - full of errors and sometimes rather difficult to interpret properly.
    I am currently working on a case of a very early Ferrari for which three (3!) different sets of build sheets exist, all for the same car/same chassis number. All sheets issued by the factory, no fakes or duplicates etc.

    Let's not forget that 70, 60, 50 years ago there were no computers, but handwriting and typewriters only. Don't expect the factory to be perfect. Today's world is super "perfect" with robots, excel sheets, iphones and iclouds, back then it was just a dark office full of nice black haired Italian secretaries typing like hell.......

    The magic and wonders of Maranello.

    Marcel Massini
     
  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #14 miurasv, Dec 18, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
    Thanks Dyke and Marcel. The standard 275 engine is tipo 213 as I know you know, Dyke. The main engine build sheet, as well as the front cover for 5909, states the tipo as 210.

    So, just down to typing errors then, of which there are many. I'm surprised Enzo allowed this poor standard. Of the chassis plates for the 250LMs I have seen so far they all say tipo 211.
     
  15. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    I know, I know.......

    Marcel Massini


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  16. Ed Niles

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    Not trying to derail, just curious: What engine in the 275GTB/C, 90xx series?
     
  17. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #17 miurasv, Dec 18, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
    213/C.
     
  18. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Actually, Marcel you know but I don't and I would like to know. Is that 6023 plate genuine? Is it a coincidence that 6023 engine is said to have been swapped with 6313 which had engine number 16LM. 6023 is said to have had a different engine number. See some other 250 LM plates which have a different arrangement of letters and numbers.

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  19. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Of course that 6023 plate is NOT genuine.
    That's why I wrote "I know, I know"....

    Marcel Massini
     
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  20. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    I've seen 6023/6313 many times since 1992 at events. How should I identify it in my database? Which chassisnumber and engine number? Thanks!
     
  21. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    213/Comp on build sheets.
     
  22. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    And IS 5899 plate genuine? What do you know?
     
  23. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

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    210 and 211 engines....this is a really esoteric thread, probably less than a dozen cars of different "types", total, and maybe 20-25 blocks(who really knows)!

    these are full tilt competition engines...
    I have a 210 "down" now with another in the bullpen....
    done them before
    the differences lie NOT in bore diameters-but in other casting differences...
    I do one of the "P" cars which came with these first(been up close with all 4 over the last 45 years)...LMs came later; BUT, ceased at a very distinct point on the
    calendar.

    I do prototype machining at the aerospace/military level, so my observations of difference are quantitative and NOT qualitative, nor, based on conjecture of what might or might not "have been"....
    Intent is impossible to quantify-physical limitations based on actual sizing, speaks loudly and clearly: and tells all...

    Actual dimensions, combined with the real chronological progression of the GES racing agenda makes this all pretty clear.
    If you have an LM , and would like to know what is really going on(FWIW- I suspect DWR knows all this, as he cares for similar compcars of this period, and I am of the opinion that "we" that do, all know the whys...PARTICULARLY we the machinists...), PM me and I will respond to you directly with a detailed description along with the coinciding calendar. If you are MODEL builder of note, this info will be important to you if details are REALLY important as there are external physical dimensional differences worthy of significant note...
     
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  24. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    PM sent.
     

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