250 lm

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Ferrarinw2, Jun 8, 2006.

  1. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    But with the listed lap time poor vision would seem to be a minor inconvenience. It makes me think that there was more to the reason it was not run.
     
  2. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Does anyone have any photos of the 250 LM that Nino Vaccarella drove on August 15, 1965 at the Enna City Cup race? it was race #36 and was a DNF due to a crash.
     
  3. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
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    Thanks Steve. I missed it too but I'll take another look. Fortunately I bought Marcel's book on publication, otherwise I would need a bank loan to get a copy today!

    John
     
  4. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    It could have been concluded that as the roof was dissimilar to the GTO64 it may impede the likelihood of homologation for the 250LM as a GT car even further???
     
  5. Jeff Kennedy

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    The Series II GTO only came after the LM was not accepted by the FIA and the GTO would have to again be the top line entry for the GT series. As for Le Mans, the 250LM was not being accepted as the GT car anyway as the FIA ruling had already been made.
     
  6. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    All of the 250GTO/64s had been built by the time this car made its debut at Le Mans in 1964 and the performance advantage over the standard car was by then acknowledged as very low and more likely due to the cars being new and fresh rather than old and used up. I would be surprised if the 250LM was any more than a trial run for a possible tail profile although considering the issues with homologation, would the CSI really allow Ferrari to receive homologation and promptly change the tail. That said I note the Aston Martin DP214 and Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupes were homologated as GT cars but they were only loosely based on the same platform and I believe it was the extreme modifications that essentially made these cars Prototypes with a roof (silhouette formula of the 1970s anyone?) that made the CSI take a fine tooth comb to Enzos 250LM application. By 1965 Ford had managed to homologate the GT40 for GT racing although that meant John Wyer had to produce 50 examples of the type in late 1964/ early 1965, and despite the creation of the 275GTB/C and the later Daytona Competizione, Ferrari chose to concentrate on Formula 1 and their GT ambitions were now in the hands of privateers, with Porsche taking up the cudgel with the ubiquitous 911.
     
  7. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #732 miurasv, May 24, 2018
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
    Wasn't the S2 250 GTO designed to look similar to the 250 LM to help in the latter's homologation as a GT car?

    The 250 LM was finally homologated as a GT car in 1966.
     
  8. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    My understanding is that the roof structure was part of the nascent use of aerodynamics which was moving forward in leaps and bounds at the time. Bluemel/Pourret note the 250LM and GTO/64 were designed in tandem with Mike Parkes essentially managing the GTO/64 development. Pininfarina may have been peeved that the original GTO was an in house/ Bizzarini designed car so they were certainly on board for the GTO/64 and at the time the air bridge had worked well on the 250/275/330P so appending the bridge onto the rear of the cabin should have funnelled air to the spoiler atop the Kamm tail. Bluemel/ Pourret go on to say that the GTO/64 had such a steeply raked windshield it became very hot to drive and the aero offered no real world benefit over the standard GTO. The next step was always going to be mid engined, the difficult choice being to differentiate any mid engined GT from the two mid engined sports prototype with either V6 or V12 engines (275P or 206SP)....... The what ifs around the 250LM remain, Ferrari couldn't go small because they were already toying with the Dino series and didn't have the money to build 50 250LMs without pre selling them and clients weren't going to buy a car without guarantee of homologation and homologation couldn't happen until they were built. Ford and Porsche simply played the game much better with Ford having enough money to build 50 GT40s and Porsche going for the smaller but more usable 904/906 range.
     
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  9. Jeff Kennedy

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    Although I have the greatest admiration for Jess, I must question his analysis that the LM offered no real world advantage to the GTO. Jess was an owner of a Series 1 GTO and just might be a bit biased. The LM does get hot inside but far more than the windshield the reason are the coolant runs going from the front to the engine. Those who have spent time with both the GTO and the LM (I have only spent time with the LM) say that the GTO is a far more forgiving car. The 3.3 liter motor is definitely more powerful than the 3.0 of the GTO.

    As I remember it, the number wasn't 50 but 100.

    There had been consternation that the 250 GTO had really stretched the interpretation of being a derivative of the 250 SWB and had a used a storyline of a connection to the mid 50s onward 3 liter GT cars as the lineage to achieve the required "production" status.

    The 250LM was viewed as not much more than a 250P with a full roof. With the mid engine it was difficult to use the derivative from the GTO or the production line. So as this new model came along for homologation by the FIA there was a lot of scrutiny. Ferrari did the famous staging of LMs as if they were under build but to no avail. It likely did not help that Porsche did, apparently, make all 100 of the 904s, making their homologation unassailable.

    Years later Carroll Shelby was quoted as saying that the real rules were that there need not be 100 at that time but that the production would achieve 100. Would Ferrari have ever achieved this number? Probably not, but they surely would have gotten far more that the 30 something that were built.
     
  10. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    I was riffing on the original picture of the aero mods on the 250LM at Le Mans in 1964 and debating the merits of the 1964 coachwork over the standard GTOs. The 250LM would have been a big leap forward, whatever the merits of the rear bodywork because it was lighter, stronger, more powerful and mid engined so likely better balanced.
     
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  11. Christian.Fr

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  12. bigodino

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  13. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    The Caption IS: Alan Hamilton in his Porsche 904 ‘906-007’ in one of its earliest appearances in Australia, at the 1966 Australian Tourist Trophy, Longford in March 1966. Alongside is Spencer Martin’s Ferrari 250LM and on the far side Frank Matich, in the victorious Elfin 400/Traco Olds. Hamilton was 2nd, Martin 3rd. (Ellis French)
    #66 is the ex Bib Stillwell/ Dick Thurston Cooper Monaco c/n #20 and we all know the 250LM is the ex David McKay/Scuderia Veloce, now Ralph Lauren #6321

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_Australian_Tourist_Trophy
     
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  14. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ

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  15. Athanase

    Athanase Karting

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    5897 David Hobbs & Mike Salmon.
    may 1966, Brands Hatch, Ilford 500.
     
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  16. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ

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    Exellent!
    The Ilford 500; Brands Hatch, 8 may 1966. Finish fourth.
     
  17. lgs

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    #743 lgs, Jun 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
    No "Qualified Authentication" or replies so far ... Well, here some humble input.

    The original 6045 from 1964 burnt in 1981 to an insurance write-off and is no more. The original remnants, claimed to be used in the Non-Freshman-car’s frame, were some numberless, unidentified tubes surfaced in Italy on a trailer. However, not those tubes but a new replica chassis got used for this car’s build-up during the late 80-ties.

    The Freshman-car built in the early 80-ties in the US ( = "doppelgänger" of the Octane article and probably this very car is pictured there) had the original 6045 number plate and rear crossbar, original engine block and all other original parts left after the fire. This car less engine and rear crossbar got allegedly destroyed from Classiche.

    Today, the reunited "6045" from Classiche has another new replica chassis made in 2012/3, a new replica body, the original rear crossbar with the number plate and a welded Classiche-stamp, may be the original engine block and certainly an original Red Book Certificate.

    Any authentication is welcome, overall pictures of the *unpainted* frame before Classiche’s assembly in 2012/3. And of course, LM-heritage is the only relevant issues here and not experts, marketing or certificates nor that is the very car a perfect and most wonderful creation.
     
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  18. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Is this a standard looking stamping compared to other LM or 250/275 stampings? According to the RM-catalogue this block is today in ‘6045’. It seems that ‘4’ and ‘5’ got later added with some different, larger lettering and some previous stamping is visible as well. The metal’s surface appears to be freshly machined what might be the reason that ‘6’ and ‘0’have less stamping deepness compared to ‘4’ and ‘5’. Hence, the slash between 14 and LM got cut at the top and all distance eliminated to the surface. Is this the machined and restamped 6045/2 replica block?
     
  19. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Rookie
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    the 4 and 5 looks like restamped, also both numbers are a little taller. the 6 and 0 seems to me original
     
  20. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

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    That has not been machined flat, its hand done, probably at a slight chamfer from left to right so as to retain the first two digits and then achieve a clearer area for restamping the last two, hence why the first pair are shallower.

    If someone wanted to fake numbers it would be easier just to machine the lot off and start again, so that block probably got renumbered in the past and that is an attempt to re apply the last two original digits.
     
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