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250 lusso opportunity- not barn find but close

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by jav, Jul 5, 2008.

  1. jav

    jav Formula Junior

    Apr 9, 2007
    508
    Massachusetts
    Full Name:
    John
    gents,

    please excuse this as my first post in this section but I've stumbled onto an opportunity that I'm in disbeleif of and I need a reality check.

    I have stumbled upon a 1964 Lusso that isn't running but is complete and in decent (or better) condition (actually it's beatiful but like many here I am biased). My understanding is that it was running as early as 3 years prior and needs very little to be running again. The body is straight and unmolested with no corrision evident. It has some dings and of course has been repainted to less than concourse quality... but it would still turn heads and seems like it could be an incredible driver or restoration candidate.

    The probelm is... I NEVER thought I would be faced with this type of decision and as such, am completely out of touch with what this type of car might be worth as it sits. I have been asked to make an offer and I don't even have a ball park... not to mention my enthusiasm and guidiness has killed any sense of logic I might have had previously.

    I think I can own this car within my means ( and my means are rather limited). I would be most appreciative for some candid guidance despite the online medium. As responses or PM but time is of the essence as I'm away from home, leaving soon, and must act qiuckly or possibly live with regret over this-

    My thanks in advance-


    John Viveiros
     
  2. Vintage V12

    Vintage V12 Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2004
    1,426
    #2 Vintage V12, Jul 5, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 5, 2008
    From your description and if it is not missing any parts offer 250-300K for it. Even less. It will cost 250-300K to get it to the condition of a 600-700K car. If you do not mind the cosmetics, figure 50-60K for engine rebuild done properly. Have someone in your area who knows these cars check it out before doing anything. Check the engine number, past ownership history,reciepts,etc. Be careful and think about it. Ask yourself, Is this project something I really want to get into? And trust me, it will be a project. Very different animal then a 308,348..keep us posted
     
  3. FERRARI-TECH

    FERRARI-TECH Formula 3

    Nov 9, 2006
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    Ferrari-tech
    PM sent
    Good luck
     
  4. jav

    jav Formula Junior

    Apr 9, 2007
    508
    Massachusetts
    Full Name:
    John
    many thanks for the prompt replies. I will attempt to answer all PM's as time permits- very late here.

    Again

    Thanks
     
  5. Ferrarinw2

    Ferrarinw2 Five Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 7, 2006
    54,439
  6. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
    Honorary

    Sep 7, 2004
    2,313
    West Hills, CA
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    Edwin K. Niles
    Proper restoration (and perhaps foolish to do less) is now up to $500,000! Keep that in mind.
     
  7. The Red Baron

    The Red Baron Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2005
    871
    Full Name:
    Warren
    The best way to approach your situation is start with the value of a restored car and work backwards. Restoration costs are expensive but depend on what country you have it done in. For the amount you would spend this varies considerably. USD 250k plus but not in the USA. Ensure the car is what you think it is, ie, chassis, engine numbers. Ok course the guy who is selling the car probably should own it. Remember if the deal sounds to good be very wary. All the best.
    Warren
     
  8. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
    11,850
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Onno
    Calling toto_70!

    His 250 Lusso was auctioned at RM Leggenda e Passione on the 18th of May and grossed around $1.1 million (the grey, non-competition car). To get that sort of money when restored, you need to have the very best in the business working on your car, and even Ferrari Classiche said they could not have done a better job. I believe the starting point for this work was in a lot better shape than the car you are describing, and still the work took 4 years to complete. So, be careful what you let yourself in for. Seems to me that the suggested 250 - 300k is the maximum you should offer, but I'm no expert. I find the $500k mentioned for a top quality restoration quite credible, so considering you start with 250 - 300k, take on all the risk, have no guarantee on prices 5 years down the line, well then the margin is not all that spectacular really. I mean, it's not bad, but you will have earned it by then!

    You can find photos of the restauration process on www.forzaservice.eu

    Good luck!



    Onno
     
  9. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
    2,601
    San Francisco Area
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    Thanks, but where exactly? There is no English version to this site.

    john
     
  10. djaffrey

    djaffrey Formula Junior

    Apr 11, 2004
    481
    London, England
    Full Name:
    DJ
    John

    Click on......

    Werkplaats

    Then......

    Overzicht Modellen

    Then......

    Lusso

    from the pick list and hey prsto.

    Regards from rainy London.

    Darren
     
  11. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,670
    souding like the start of another great thread

    .

    BTW JAV, do you know the serial number?
     
  12. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
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    I believe it is 5143GT.
     
  13. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

    Jun 21, 2007
    1,419
    UK
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    Will Tomkins
    #13 246tasman, Jul 9, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2008
    Another approach:
    The way I read your description makes it sound like you could give the car a good clean up, a comprehensive service, expect to have to fix a few gremlins, and have a really nice driving car. I think if you allow $30,000 for this it should be plenty providing you find a good mechanic at the right rates. Looking after a Lusso isn't rocket science whatever some people will tell you.
    So you don't have a concours car, so what. Personally I wouldn't want one any way.
    What you will have is a great machine.
    At current values that must be worth a minimum of $500,000, so make your bid accordingly.
     
  14. Vintage V12

    Vintage V12 Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2004
    1,426
    I would love to look at an itemized Ferrari restoration bill of 500K us dollars.
     
  15. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,670
    perhaps a better estimate can be made with pics and or some other details.
     
  16. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
    2,601
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    John Vardanian
    I'd think a steel bodied Ferrari that has lived in damp climate can become Swiss cheese from the waist down, in which case a professional rebuild can be at the high end of the spectrum and up to $500k even.

    Remember, while the upside may have been painted and repainted over the years, the flip side is bare, untreated steel (make that poor quality Italian steel).

    Another thing to consider is that to get that midnight blue or wine red paint job to look outstanding (like P. Kalikow's 250 Cab for instance), the body man has to apply filler and sand (over and over and over and over) and/or fiddle with the panels with hammer and dolly forever in hopes of getting away with a little less filler. If you've ever seen an old Ferrari with all the paint stripped, you'll believe me.

    john
     
  17. toto70_0

    toto70_0 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 14, 2004
    3,720
    NETHERLANDS
    The luck with 5143 was, that the car was well looked after by the service department of the Ferrari factory until the early seventies, then the car went to England and was looked after at David Clarcke's Graypaul Motors, still noticeable because the rear corners of the bumpers are of David Clarke's personal Lusso RU 5. And in 1984 the car went to Peter Rosenmaier who restored the car at that time and the car was hardly used since, until the last restoration started 4 years ago.
    When the car was taken apart, nearly no rust was found and al parts where genuine on the car. And I have been looking for 4 years for NOS parts for the car .
    I know now if a car is not complete and has a lot of rust it will be nearly impossible to get the car completly correct.

    So that is why I am looking now for a correct 1965 275 GTB shortnose that has been standing for many years and needs everything done but was never been molested. Preferbly original colour silver or goldish and no wire wheels.
    I want to do a perfect restoration and keep the car for my daughter.
    Hopefully there is somebody who nows of one.

    Thanks
    Tonnie
     
  18. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

    Jun 24, 2004
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    Marnix
    Is she seeing anyone?
     
  19. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ

    Jun 9, 2005
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    Christian.Fr
    Some pictures available?
     
  20. toto70_0

    toto70_0 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 14, 2004
    3,720
    NETHERLANDS
    It was her nineth birthday yesterday , but she really likes cars already, she knows exactly which models she likes her favorite is the 512S, and her Dino 246 GTS ofcourse, I gave her a Dino 246 GTS 2 years ago, which is being repainted at this moment.
     
  21. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

    Jun 24, 2004
    9,741
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    Marnix
    She has to be the youngest vintage Ferrari owner on the planet!

    You must be a proud dad!
     
  22. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    69,522
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Amanda first 'drove' 308GTB #22127 around her neighborhood, when she was six.........it'll be 'Vintage' by the time she gets her license, in two years...


    She has already mastered the 6 speed/clutch in the Trans Am though, spinning around the Football parking lot!

    Back to this Lusso.......more details?

    It sounds like a solid driver, and resto could be postponed???

    Good luck in your search, toto....
     
  23. jav

    jav Formula Junior

    Apr 9, 2007
    508
    Massachusetts
    Full Name:
    John
    Gentleman-

    many thanks for all the insight and PM's... I am indebted to many and will need help along the way since ............... I AM A LUSSO OWNER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    To answer the many inquiries, I am not going to part with the car as it is just too special to me, my son, and it's previous caretakers. The elderly gentleman (and his wife), made a most generous and heartfelt gift to entrust this gem to me at a price I could afford. In my heart, it remains as much theirs as mine and my hope is that my son and I can work together to bring it back to what it once was as this is a once in a lifetime opportunity for both of us. I appreciate all the help especially, but all the "interest" has me a little spooked so please bear with my paranoia until it sinks in that it's mine and not going anywhere. I went so far as to transport the car home myself (for many reasons, not the least of which was that I didn't want to part company with the car).

    The Car- It is Red (the exact shade escapes me but it's not Rosso Corsa) with black interior. It is absolutely straight and complete. This car is much closer to a 100 point car than a basket case and the more I learn, the more I appreciate just how amazing this car is. It is not perfect, but what it needs most is care and attention as there are no known major issues. I was shocked to learn (after we made the deal) that the car has under 30k documented original miles! It has never seen rain, placed in some shows and has been cared for by true car lovers. I am it's fourth owner and the previous couple owned it for almost 30 years. I am still learning and strangely, still a little over protective since I can't believe it's actually mine.

    I'd like to do a lot more research before I post it's serial number or pictures and I beg your patience with my paranoia but, given all the interest, I'm in uncharted waters.

    Warm Regards

    John Viveiros
     
  24. t walgamuth

    t walgamuth Formula Junior

    Mar 13, 2005
    850
    It sounds great!

    Good luck with your project to get it up and running. It sounds wonderful.

    Tom W
     
  25. Infinity_Racer

    Infinity_Racer Karting

    Apr 1, 2008
    178
    Central Fl.
    Full Name:
    Gus B
    I was about to ask the same thing....
     

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