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250 Monza

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 246tasman, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Dec 30, 2006
    2,623
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  2. Franco Lombardi

    Franco Lombardi Karting

    Nov 17, 2009
    93
    Genova
    Full Name:
    Franco Lombardi
    Sorry, in a rush and travelling. Dear Peter, Giotto and Cliff, a lot of interesting news here, all worth exploring with a bit more time. If you might kindly send me an e-mail address via PM I will appreciate. Thanks.
    0432M is a very interesting case. As you might know, this car is the first of the series, having been delivered one month before 0420M. Moreover, in the assembly sheet is described as “Prototipo”. Worth also mentioning that the “complessivo telaio” Tipo 504 surfaces in the Gilco register in the last days of 1953. Both Pinin Farina 250 Monza (0432M and 0420M) belonged to the early high headlights design (with the first car soon modified with a highly unusual faired headlight nose – not by Pinin Farina) and yes, Kare, from 0430MD on, only long nose sports cars built in Turin!
    Cliff, I new that your father was in the chain of owners after Jeff Scott and before Ken Hutchinson, Do you have possibly details (a PM possibly?)? Thanks.
    0442M is probably the best known of them all. A lovely and highly successful car. I have researched its early Italian racing activity and discussed its history with the Scuderia Guastalla people (Gerino Gerini, Gilberto Cornacchia and the team secretary, Gianni Restelli) and with Manfredo Lippman. I think I have most steps, but before reaching Bill Serri there might be a few gaps worth investigating. Thanks for offering help; Antoine and I will appreciate your assistance.
    I will get back on this issue.
     
  3. richardowen

    richardowen Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2004
    835
    Montreal, Canada
    Can't wait. Are there any historic images of the Scaglietti 0466M?

    Thanks,

    Rich
     
  4. etceterini.com

    etceterini.com Karting

    May 26, 2008
    200
    St. Louis MO
    Full Name:
    Cliff Reuter
    You can email me at: cliff@cliffreuter.com




     
  5. stefano paracchi

    Jan 29, 2011
    3


    Dear Prof.Lombardi, you are a professor on a law university... and of course you know the Italian justice is always a mistake, but who among us does not make them? however, given that says he was wrongly convicted, should you please explain us, why asked the Baron Gendebien and Mr. Favero, money and the Gendebien 250 Monza, there are records on the basis of which he was sentenced, perhaps wanted the couple? or because was difficult find on the market another car at 10.000 euro... His car has been certified, yes but i remember who in those years was approved a lot of cars, without delving deeply into originality. Also because a lot of people says that the 100% original is the other. And certainly a sentence like the one you received, did not help. At least have the decency to keep quiet.
    Last but not least, also tell us, what for Unique cars event which was held in Florence last year, was not accepted with the 250 Monza.
     
  6. jimmyr

    jimmyr Karting

    Oct 10, 2004
    202
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Cliff, That is me in 0432 at an outing at Ken Hutchisons farm in Illinois. I serviced and took care of the Monza for Ken for about 11 years until it was sold to Jacobs in 1987 then Sachs and then to Jack Croul. Ken got the Monza from Carl Bross in Mi in 1968. As pictured I had a very hard time starting the Monza that day as the mags and 4 barrel carbs were a tricky lot to work with. With the kind help of Hal Ulrich who drove this Monza in Cuba and South America it sprang to life - a loud and powerful vehicle! Jim Riff
     
  7. Franco Lombardi

    Franco Lombardi Karting

    Nov 17, 2009
    93
    Genova
    Full Name:
    Franco Lombardi
    In general, the 250 Monza case is a very interesting and rather less known episode in Ferrari sports cars history. While the histories of the earlier cars are fully known, the picture of 0466M is fairly more complicated. I may say that, to the best of our knowledge, we have no race record and obscure evidence of its life during the 12 months of its life in which it was kept by the factory before being sold to Cornacchia. Gianni Restelli (the well-known Scuderia Guastalla secretary, before becoming the Monza Autodromo director) remembered the difficulties they had in obtaining that car from Ferrari, as they knew it was a lot more developed of its previous 250 Monza sisters, thanks to its 5 speed gearbox and front coil suspensions. Our evidence suggests that the car was part of the experimental path centred on the new elliptical tubes chassis Tipo 509 and 510 and, in particular, to the experiments on wheelbase setting for the new chassis then under development.
    Ferrari records, all existing period literature and contemporary testimonies confirm that there were originally four cars (and four identities: 0432M, 0420M, 0442M and 0466M) and that the first two of them were bodied by Pinin Farina with the then in use beautiful high headlights configuration. The second ones, following the same chronological pattern evidenced by the contemporary Mondials, were bodied by Scaglietti. All this has been recently confirmed by the modenese carrozziere in his memories edited by Franco Gozzi, at p. 74/75 of “L’ê andeda acsè – Sergio Scaglietti una leggenda modenese,” Donelli (Artioli Editore, Modena) 2008.
    In our book we will detail how – on the remains of 0420M, using the original chassis and the original body of that car – a fifth car took later shape: Four identities and five cars!? Well, after all Ferrari confirms having built five chassis and Pininfarina – denying to have ever bodied 0466M – confirms having bodied 0420M twice!
    Now, you might obviously be entitled to think that there was just one fourth 250 Monza car and that this was originally a Pinin Farina (guess who is supporting this theory?), or you might think that things are a bit more complicated.
    Getting back to what previously posted here, I am confident you would understand the reasons leading not to offer here all the details to be published in “Ferrari in Linea 4-and 6-cylinder Sports Racing Cars and Related Types (1953 – 1957)”. Further researching is an endless task and therefore private mails and personal messages are quite welcome and would keep going as usual. If all this will be always a pleasure, having to do with personal matters presented in fairly unpleasant and aggressive ways, is something different and I do not intend to reply and mess around with Mr. Paracchi. And, by the way, I never thought of entering my 250 Monza at the Unique event in Florence. Sandro Binelli, organizer of the event and a very good friend, would have no difficulty in setting this matter clear.
     
  8. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2004
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    Cyril TESTE
    Why not posting at least a picture of your car "as found" ??
     
  9. Franco Lombardi

    Franco Lombardi Karting

    Nov 17, 2009
    93
    Genova
    Full Name:
    Franco Lombardi
    Aardy, I'll send you a PM message
     
  10. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
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    Full Name:
    george burgess
    Sounds like this book of yours is going to be......well BIG tp say the least. Be sure to keep us updated on your progress. I am sure there will be great interest. Some autographed copies would be nice. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  11. etceterini.com

    etceterini.com Karting

    May 26, 2008
    200
    St. Louis MO
    Full Name:
    Cliff Reuter
    Amazing that you are the guy in the photo! My Dad was there and took those slides.
    One thing though, my Dad (Jack Reuter) sold the car to Ken Hutchison. Ken actually
    picked it up on the day I was born, so I tried my best to stop the sale of the car but
    to no avail!!
     
  12. Franco Lombardi

    Franco Lombardi Karting

    Nov 17, 2009
    93
    Genova
    Full Name:
    Franco Lombardi
    #37 Franco Lombardi, Feb 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    250 Monza and Dos Santos...
    Let me inform you about a rather interesting discovery, whose merit essentially goes to Branko, whose research into Ferrari historical matters deserves our full appreciation.
    Discussing with him about the Ferrari 250 Monzas, I confirmed that – IMO and according to conventional wisdom/general consensus – the Pinin Farina 0466M (No. 559) classified in 79th position in the 1956 Mille Miglia was entered and driven by Joao Razende Dos Santos with Araujo. Branko suggested vice versa that both Fayen and Dos Santos had nothing to do with that car.
    Specifically he mentioned that Dos Santos widow had no recollection whatsoever of the car. My first answer was that family recollections sometime are less then accurate… Branko added on the other hand that no photo of the 250 Monza was part of the rather complete family archive.
    At this point I started to take his opinion seriously, but still all the evidence I had was that Dos Santos and Araujo did race (not particularly successfully!) in that Mille Miglia. So I sent him a photo – here enclosed – showing the two entrants at the start of the race, in Brescia. His reaction was: “Checking and zooming your pics of the 250 MM at the start of the Mille Miglia, the driver doesn’t have a moustache and cannot possibly be Joao Rezende Dos Santos…Moreover…the driver in your photo wears glasses, Santos was never seen with them.” His enclosed picture of Joao Dos Santos, sent me back to the blackboard in order to check the various photos of him available and… yes! All of a sudden, I could see the problem: “Blimey! Branko is right! There is something wrong here. The chap driving the car in the 1956 race cannot be Dos Santos!”
    My own brief notes taken several years ago from the Brescia archives, reported Joao Dos Santos with Araujo being the entrants at the 1956 Mille Miglia and all the existing, available literature (including the excellent “Time and Two Seats” by Wimpffen, “Red Arrows” by Giannino Marzotto and the respected WSRP web site by Krejci) confirm this data. Branko’ evidence, on the other hand, had to be investigated with the utmost care.
    Having a couple of good friends in Brescia I pestered them in order to get all the available information from the Mille Miglia archives about car No. 559 in the 1956 race. And here is the answer: our car was entered by the Brazilian team of Mario Valentim Dos Santos and Mario Silva Araujo. A letter from Gianni Restelli of Scuderia Guastalla of 14 September 1957 – enclosed – and the Scuderia address as a reference in the entry form confirm the relationship with Franco Cornacchia’s team and his ties with most Italian racing cars sold in South American. The aim of the letter, addressed to Renzo Castagneto, was to insist, on Dos Santos behalf, to get a price for his placing in the race of the previous year. The answer of 2 October 1957 by Castagneto says that “as previously written to Signor Mario Valentim Dos Santos, no price is due as he has completed the race but exceeding assigned time. He was included within the ranking not to deny his effort and only for moral reasons.”
    Mario Valentim Dos Santos is the better known of those two Brazilian gentlemen. I have a not-confirmed presence (2-litre class) at Interlagos in 1951 and Quinta de Boavista in 1952, plus a 3rd place at Circuito do Porto in 1953 with a Ferrari 225S, a 5th place in 1954 with a Ferrari 166MM/53 and a presence at the GP de Lisboa (both cars are fairly well-known). I also have him in a few further Brazilian races up to 1960 or so.
    For Araujo I only have a not-confirmed presence at Circuito do Quinta de Boavista (?) and at Circuito de Maracanà in 1955 (?). It would be interesting to know something more and to explore a possible relationship between the first one and Joao Rezande Dos Santos. The Pinin Farina 0466M was then further entered in a few Brazilian races by Henrique Casini in 1957 and by Varanda in 1958.
    Also worth adding that Franco Cornacchia and the Scuderia Guastalla were involved at the time with both Dos Santos. Joao Rezende Dos Santos initial entry (at Imola and at the Bolzano-Mendola) during his 1955 Italian season was a well-known Mondial Pf owned by that team. Then, presumably with the help of Cornacchia, he bought 0562MD and entered this Mondial at the Circuito di Reggio Calabria and at Messina.
    I am glad of having offered my contribution to clear this issue, but the merit goes very much to Branko Krnjajski and to his researching.
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  13. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
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    Feb 21, 2004
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    Cyril TESTE
    Great story. Thanks for these infos !

    BTW : the 500 Mondial PF spyder of Joao Rezende Dos Santos was 0406/MD...
     
  14. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
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    Feb 21, 2004
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    Cyril TESTE
    I should have written "raced by Joao Rezende Dos Santos"...
     
  15. ERault

    ERault Rookie

    Aug 8, 2007
    18
  16. Franco Lombardi

    Franco Lombardi Karting

    Nov 17, 2009
    93
    Genova
    Full Name:
    Franco Lombardi
    Yes. As I said above "The Pinin Farina 0466M was then further entered in a few Brazilian races by Henrique Casini in 1957 and by Varanda in 1958."
     
  17. stefano paracchi

    Jan 29, 2011
    3
    Caro Professore, via siamo seri, la macchina che il compianto Barone Gendebien e il Dott. Favero avevano è sicuramente corretta, poi non ci sono Ferrari con lo stesso numero, a meno di non segare una 250 GTE e metterci i numeri di un Monza... a tale proposito le suggerirei di stare attento, mi giunge voce che qualche giudice, magari anche quello che ha già condannato Lei, si sia preso la briga di fare pressare delle macchine che apparivano dubbie... se poi è sicuro di quello che dice, si iscriva a Unique con la Monza.... ci faremo quattro risate...poi Ferrari non avrebbe potuto permettersi di tenere una Monza in casa per un anno senza venderla o farla correre!

    Dear Professor, we are serious way, the car that the late Baron Gendebien and Dr. Favero is certainly correct, then there is Ferrari with the same number, unless to cut a 250 GTE chassis and put the numbers of a Monza. .. In this respect I would suggest to be careful, I receive voice that some judges, perhaps even what he has already condemned you, has taken the trouble to destroy the cars that appeared doubtful ... if he is sure of what he says, sign up for Monza with the Unique .... we will laugh ... then Ferrari could not afford to keep a house in Monza for a year without selling it or race it.
     
  18. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Feb 22, 2004
    5,947
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    Tom Wiggers
    So Franco Meiners or a new owner of the pininfarina 'barn find' 250 monza could never registered car as 0466M? Or get a Classiche Certificate by Ferrari.....

    Tom
     
  19. carvad

    carvad Formula Junior

    Sep 27, 2008
    592
    Kiev, Ukraine
    Full Name:
    Vadim Dobrovolskyi
    What was the first race for the 0432 M?
     
  20. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    11,644
    6 June 1954:
    Raced at the III Annual Endurance Circuit South-East, Hyères 12 hours, by Piotti and co-driver Maurice Trintignant, race #6, placed 1st OA (two different windscreens used, recessed headlights with plexiglass covers).
    One day before, 5 June 1954, 0432 M had been sold by the factory to the first owner Luigi Piotti in Milan, who paid Italian Lire 3'500'000.

    Marcel Massini
     
  21. carvad

    carvad Formula Junior

    Sep 27, 2008
    592
    Kiev, Ukraine
    Full Name:
    Vadim Dobrovolskyi
  22. carvad

    carvad Formula Junior

    Sep 27, 2008
    592
    Kiev, Ukraine
    Full Name:
    Vadim Dobrovolskyi
    Mr Massini, could you clarify which s/n was raced in GP Napoly 1954 by Musitelli?
     
  23. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    11,644
    Photos?

    Marcel Massini
     
  24. firrare

    firrare Rookie

    Dec 19, 2009
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    Luc
  25. jimmyr

    jimmyr Karting

    Oct 10, 2004
    202
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Full Name:
    Jim
    1. You are correct Jack was between Bross and Ken in that chain, now with Mecham. And Ulrich drove it at Sebring for Norm Silver. Anyone know how Ken is these days? Jim
     

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