News

250 PF Coupe ...

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by djaffrey, Dec 13, 2005.

  1. gwbrown

    gwbrown Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 18, 2004
    3
    Pittsburgh
     
  2. gwbrown

    gwbrown Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 18, 2004
    3
    Pittsburgh
  3. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
    2,593
    San Francisco Area
    Full Name:
    John Vardanian
    GW, very nice of you to provide these. Thank you. Do you know the year?

    john
     
  4. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    10,708
  5. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    10,708
    Aardy, of2worlds and NEP like this.
  6. 375+

    375+ F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2005
    4,707
  7. gwbrown

    gwbrown Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 18, 2004
    3
    Pittsburgh
    According to the state inspection sticker, those pics were taken in 1993. Here are two more(with the number 50 on the side) taken at the first PVGP in 1983.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. bertdeboer340

    bertdeboer340 Formula 3

    Sep 16, 2003
    1,454
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Bert de Boer
    Just a question about the 250 PF coupe, sometimes you read about serie I and serie II cars. What is the difference between these 2 series? I know that the later cars became disc brakes and that there was an engine replacement.
     
  9. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 23, 2002
    12,314
    For one, inside plug VS outside plug. My car was a 1959 inside plug but came with factory disk brakes.
     
  10. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    10,708
    Yes, since 17 years with same owner in Switzerland.

    Marcel Massini
     
    375+ and of2worlds like this.
  11. amerikalei

    amerikalei Rookie

    May 23, 2011
    34
    Given this is a low sn for a pf coupe, was this a case of Pininfarina trying things out before resolving a production design standard? I know it is a speciale, but the control knob location on the later cars makes more sense. The overall number of controls seems similar to a later production car although this might have one more knob than a typical pf coupe (additional fan control perhaps?), but I think the later dash design is more elegant and understated. The other thing I question is the relatively large chrome letters with the chrome horse on the nose. Although the clean grille is nice, I prefer the small yellow enamel rectangular prancing horse that was more production standard, with the chrome horse mounted on the grille. I can't think of any other Ferraris of that era that spelled it out that way, but I'm not as well versed as some on this thread. Nice to see an at-speed photo. I think one of the success of this design was how nice the car looks in motion.
     
  12. lancia

    lancia Formula Junior

    Jan 18, 2004
    307
    To post 1485, Bert, generally, here are the differences:


    The earlier cars, today referenced as Series I, had the 128D inside plug 250 motor, typically with Weber 36DCL3 carburetors. Up until serial number 10XX, many Coupes had the single 12-lead Marelli St. 195 DTEM/KS distributor. Thereafter - I do not know the exact point of change, but probably by the end of 1958 - the Coupes had versions of the typical twin Marelli distributors. There are a few equipped with the Lucas distributors and generator, a supply experiment that did not progress. The inside plug motor has a remote Carello (licensed FRAM) cartridge-canister oil filter on the side of the engine compartment, along with the screen filter within the timing case. The Series I had drum brakes with a large twin-chamber master cylinder (likely originating from a FIAT truck application, as you will find a very small FIAT stamp on the unit); the wire wheels were Borrani RW3264. The battery location moved within the engine compartment during production.

    From a coachwork standpoint, a Series I can be recognized by the small Marchal sidelights, with circular chrome trim plates, on the sides of the top. Again up to around serial number 10XX, the rear license light was a single Hella unit, thereafter a pair of small domed Carello lights. The front turn signal lights varied a lot, but most typical seemed to be the bullet lenses, either Carello or Altissimo versions. At the interior, the gearbox tunnel cover was carpeted, not leather, although the tunnel section between the seats was leather. [Restored early cars are sometimes seen with the gearbox tunnel in leather; I think this is generally a mistake.] The instrument panel top was black vinyl, and vinyl is used on some of the other interior trim pieces – not fully certain which (door panels, rear luggage area). [Again, restored cars with leather dash covers – another mistake]. The ash-tray had either crossed flags badge or Ferrari shield badge, have seen both.

    The main differences for the Series II: 128F outside-plug 250 motor, Weber 40DCL6 carburetors; disc brakes with vacuum booster. For the fitting the disc brakes, the wire wheels change to RW3526. The engine compartment fuse panel now has a cover over it with thumb-screws (the fuse panel was exposed on the Series I). The small Marchal lights at the top disappear, the gearbox tunnel is now all leather.

    In between the pure Series I and Series II, either side of chassis number 1500 (? not certain of the numbers) are transition cars with mixed specification of inside plug motor and disc brakes, or the reverse for example. Over the years, many early cars lost their original drum brakes, converted for discs (or swapped to use the drums to restore something like a 250GT Cabriolet S1 or TdF).

    Some cars had the 400 mm RW3598 wheels for which tire availability today is a problem.

    A note on the radio plate of the instrument panel: cars without radio have a simple painted cover plate over the radio opening and this plate has a chrome winged badge, with a plain shield in the center, no markings. One might immediately associate the shield shape with a Ferrari shield, but it is actually a detail Pinin Farina used from a Lancia.

    There are exceptions to the above for certain, and prototypes and several early cars had some special features as noted in this thread. See in particular also 0851GT and 0891GT. Please feel free to correct me or add to this. There is similar information in the early postings of this thread, so sorry if this repeats.

    Regarding 1007GT, the car was at RPM in Vermont I recall in the mid-to-late 1990’s? I saw it there, engine out on a bench. At the time, the interior was still original, before RPM did further restoration.
     
    bertdeboer340 and Aardy like this.
  13. 375+

    375+ F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2005
    4,707
    Thanks Marcel.
     
  14. lancia

    lancia Formula Junior

    Jan 18, 2004
    307
    One other significant difference if not mistaken: inside-plug cars have 4-speed gearbox with offset gearshift lever; outside-plug cars gave 4-speed with overdrive, centered gearshift lever.
     
    375+ likes this.
  15. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    10,708
    1007 GT was with RPM and one of their clients, a lady, between 1993 and 1997.
    And then again around 2008-2010.

    Marcel Massini
     
  16. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
    Honorary

    Sep 7, 2004
    2,299
    West Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Edwin K. Niles
    One more: Unless I'm suffering from CRAFT (can't remember a flipping thing) the later cars had overdrive, operated by a stalk on the right side of the steering column.
     
    Texas Forever and bertdeboer340 like this.
  17. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
    2,593
    San Francisco Area
    Full Name:
    John Vardanian
    You wouldn't expect a PF coupe to look so right in a track setting, but it sure does. Thank you very much, GW.

    john

    [​IMG]
     
    amerikalei likes this.
  18. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 26, 2006
    2,772
    Midwest
    Full Name:
    Geno
    Also the series 2 cars got a single round reverse light mounted below the rear bumper. I believe the ser 1 cars didn’t have one. My ser 1 car has the twin Lucus distributors which you don’t encounter often.
     
    bertdeboer340 likes this.
  19. bertdeboer340

    bertdeboer340 Formula 3

    Sep 16, 2003
    1,454
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Bert de Boer

    Thanks very much for your detailed explanation..
     
  20. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,643
    Santa Fe, NM
    Thanks, lancia, for a great description.

    Back when I first researched these cars about 18 years ago, it seemed to me that there was not a clear demarcation between the Series I and Series II PF coupes. Raab lists 1493 as the "last first style" and 1499 as the "first second style", but the first outside plug 128F motor didn't show up in a PF Coupe until 1529, and some 128D motors were installed in PF Coupes as late as 1569.

    I am told that the last PF Coupe to have drum brakes was 1493. So if your definition of Series 1 versus Series 2 relates only to the drums versus discs, then I would say that the clear demarcation is between 1493 and 1499 (and I am not mentioning the further complicating issue of the drum-brake PF Coupes that were subsequently modified by the Factory to discs - what do you call them?). But if your definition of a Series II PF Coupe is discs AND the outside-plug motor, then perhaps the first Series II car is 1529?
     
    amerikalei and 375+ like this.
  21. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
    2,593
    San Francisco Area
    Full Name:
    John Vardanian
  22. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 26, 2006
    2,772
    Midwest
    Full Name:
    Geno
  23. lancia

    lancia Formula Junior

    Jan 18, 2004
    307
    Bryan,

    My description is based on a comparison of more pure examples of the Series I vs. the Series II, inside-plug/drum brake vs. outside-plug/disc-brake. As noted, there are a number off mixed specification cars either side of 1500. I suppose one can choose where to put the emphasis for the mixed mechanical examples - either the engine or the brakes, there is no formal protocol to my knowledge other than what one chooses. I think however, the distinction falls to the Pininfarina records, which is perhaps why Hilary identifies 1493 as the demarcation. I have never seen, nor have a copy of the handwritten Pininfarina coupe list, which generally records the date the chassis was delivered to Pininfarina, the order number, destination, colors, and interior materials. The mechanical information is not shown. I do have the two issues of the Ferrari Market Letter which published a translation of the handwritten lists (January 2003; Vol. 28/No. 1 and Vol. 28/No.2). In those articles the demarcation of Series I ends at 1493. I gather from the article that the Pf record then notes "Nuova Commessa" and identifies the second group starting with 1499. Perhaps Pininfarina made a definitive adjustment to the body details at that point, generally linked to overall mechanical changes; it would take an examination of the cars at the junction to hazard a reasonable assessment. I did think of one more coachwork change during production - the early cars generally do not have a black vinyl upholstered knee bolster along the bottom of the instrument panel - all metal folding under. At some point the bolster appears, and it may have had inconsistent application at first.

    Chris
     

Share This Page