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250 TDF vs 250 SWB

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 275GTBSaran, Jul 16, 2012.

  1. thepinkumbrella

    thepinkumbrella F1 Veteran

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    #476 thepinkumbrella, Nov 22, 2012
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  2. thepinkumbrella

    thepinkumbrella F1 Veteran

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    #477 thepinkumbrella, Nov 22, 2012
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  3. thepinkumbrella

    thepinkumbrella F1 Veteran

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    #478 thepinkumbrella, Nov 22, 2012
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  4. thepinkumbrella

    thepinkumbrella F1 Veteran

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    #479 thepinkumbrella, Nov 22, 2012
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  5. Streetrod

    Streetrod Karting

    Apr 16, 2011
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    I totally agree, I must have spent an hour going over the car and could not find a single issue with it. If it looked as good back in 2008 at RM then I presume it does not get driven as it looked restoration fresh
     
  6. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #481 miurasv, Nov 22, 2012
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  7. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

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    #482 PAUL BABER, Nov 23, 2012
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    And then this even better restoration on a 250 Lusso. It was truly spectacular. The car appeared to be a very pale silvery green, but that could just have been the lighting. The interior was dark green which set the whole car off. I can usually spot a problem with most restored bodies but this one was near as damn it perfect

    [​IMG][/QUOTE]

    The Lusso is chassis 5143GT and is probably one of the least correctly restored cars I have ever seen. I stored it for its present owner for 2 years after he purchased it at RM's factory sale in Italy I think in 2009. I'm afraid your eye sight failed you on this occasion. The headlamp bezzles are 250 SWB not Lusso, The faux grill in the bonnet is made from chicken wire and looks awful. The actual ligfhts are modern replicas and not Marchal. The dashboard is also covered in Green leather and all Lussos had Black leather regardless of interior colour. If you compare it to another Lusso you will see that the 'tail' of the car is completely wrong with an accentuated lip to the boot. The rear parcel shelf is also in Green leather which should be Black. Thats just the cosmetics......When the car arrived the owner complained that the windows didnt wind up and down....Not surpising as there was only half the mechanism installed. Th gearbox refused to engage second gear and after driving it once the engine expired and had to have new head gaskets even though it had supposedly just been rebuilt.......These faults have now been fixed. I agree the paintwork is superb and the leather of the highest quality but accurately restored it most certainly is not. The car was originally Silver and very tired. It was restored by a Dutch car dealer who entered it into RM's sale. I attach photos of when in my care.
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  8. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    #483 tomgt, Nov 23, 2012
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    What a pity!!

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139353151&postcount=15
     
  9. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    In the old pantomime tradition. Oh yes it is.

    5WB is David Moores. Repainted Grigio Conchiglia after he got it in 2008
     
  10. Enigma Racing

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    Paul

    Was the smart fitted luggage a factory option ?

    Kim
     
  11. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

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    Not in this car.......The trimmer in Holland was very proud of his work and horrified when I dared to criticise his mistake with the dashboard. The luggage was constructed by him. It fits and some people like it. I dont especially but it fits beautifully.
     
  12. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

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    What a pity!!

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139353151&postcount=15[/QUOTE]

    Yes at the time it was a huge price for a Lusso. I think the average market price was about GBP350-400........ I have suggested on several occasuions to the owner that for very little money the mistakes could be rectified but he has absolutely no interest. In the past few years he has built up a small collection and other than his 275 GTB all his cars have similar faults.......
     
  13. thepinkumbrella

    thepinkumbrella F1 Veteran

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    Wires obviously got crossed along the way, you quoted my post that referenced a 250 swb that was pictured in London, that was not 3087.

    Paul

     
  14. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    Thank you Paul

    I am new to this and clearly not paying attention
     
  15. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

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    You never do ...lol
     
  16. Streetrod

    Streetrod Karting

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    The Lusso is chassis 5143GT and is probably one of the least correctly restored cars I have ever seen. I stored it for its present owner for 2 years after he purchased it at RM's factory sale in Italy I think in 2009. I'm afraid your eye sight failed you on this occasion. The headlamp bezzles are 250 SWB not Lusso, The faux grill in the bonnet is made from chicken wire and looks awful. The actual ligfhts are modern replicas and not Marchal. The dashboard is also covered in Green leather and all Lussos had Black leather regardless of interior colour. If you compare it to another Lusso you will see that the 'tail' of the car is completely wrong with an accentuated lip to the boot. The rear parcel shelf is also in Green leather which should be Black. Thats just the cosmetics......When the car arrived the owner complained that the windows didnt wind up and down....Not surpising as there was only half the mechanism installed. Th gearbox refused to engage second gear and after driving it once the engine expired and had to have new head gaskets even though it had supposedly just been rebuilt.......These faults have now been fixed. I agree the paintwork is superb and the leather of the highest quality but accurately restored it most certainly is not. The car was originally Silver and very tired. It was restored by a Dutch car dealer who entered it into RM's sale. I attach photos of when in my care.[/QUOTE]
     
  17. Streetrod

    Streetrod Karting

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    #492 Streetrod, Nov 26, 2012
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    Paul, more than happy to bow to your superior knowledge, I am an amateur body and paint man in my spare time so I tend to concentrate on fit and finish, and from that point of view the car car looked very good. I realised the issues with the interior but must admit to being a bit of a philistine when it comes to the Lusso, I actually prefer the dash and rear parcel shelf to be the same colour as the rest of the interior even though it is not period correct, I will hang my head in shame.

    As for the other issues with the car that is a little shocking to hear
     
  18. Streetrod

    Streetrod Karting

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    #493 Streetrod, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Paul, can I ask you a question, last year you had this car for sale, which apart from a couple of minor issues looked again to be a wonderful example. I had read a very interesting article about the cars travels from here to New Zealand where in was restored and then back to the UK. At the time the price you had it advertised for seemed way above the market as it appeared at the time. Did you manage to get the asking price and how would you rate the car among others you have seen or sold and was it a good buy?

    Regards
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  19. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Regarding the Lusso, I always wonder if it's at all off putting that the speedo and rev clocks, although large, are in the middle of the dash board and not straight ahead in the line of vision where the minor gauges are positioned, which makes it doubly strange or are they are easy to read? Also, because the clocks and the surrounding cowls are so attractive, I just think I'd prefer see them straight ahead.
     
  20. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    The fact that it was never repeated might be a clue.
     
  21. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

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    I sold the car via Talacrest in about 1994 to a guy named Warren de France who I think is or was a resident of NZ. It was in its original Blu Chiaro with Black hide. Nice enough carif perhaps a little tired. Warren spent a small fortune restoring the car in NZ's best restoration shop....sorry for get the name. I have about 200 photos of the restoration. I saw that Webbs auctioneers in NZ had the car for sale and I persuaded a young banker I knew at the time to back me on the car and we paid a lot of money for it as well as the cost of flying it back to the UK. I then discovered that bankers have worse business ethics than car dealers as I was told thank you very much I am going to keep it........Not a penny was paid for my efforts........Theres an old saying,.....What goes around comes around and he has it coming to him.....believe me.

    Back to the car........It was beautifully restored and every point of the car was refurbished however., rather like 5461 there were many mistakes that shouldn't have been avoided. Prior to 'losing' the car it was sent for a mechanical check with Jeff Fosker who discovered that the rear axle internals were completely worn out.......a point the restorers missed and the barke calipers were on the wrong way around. There were a few other mechanical issues but they were minor. Cosmetically it was missing the prancing horse on the front grill.........apparently Warren kept tghis as a memento ! The rear parcel shelf was Tan not Black, the door handles and upper trim were the wrong colour and the rear bumper is from a 275 GTB ......see the number plate lights.

    The banker still owns it and is new to this game and didnt care about the cosmetic issues or the bumper but Fosker cured all the mechanical ailments and ....eventually....got paid by the owner. With alittle TLC it has the makings of one of the best Lusso out there.......
     
  22. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

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    Forgot.......also the front headlights are modern replicas as are the tail lights.....Exhaust is also wrong in both shape and diameter.
     
  23. toto70_0

    toto70_0 F1 Rookie

    Sep 14, 2004
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    Hi Paul,
    about 5143
    *Yes, the front light and bezels where like a SWB, which we liked better,these where original marchals also with the car where NOS correct Marshal lights and bezels for a Lusso. which came with the car.
    *we knew that the dash and rearshelf originally where black, but we thought black wouldn't look good on the car, still have the hides VM8500 if the owner wants to change it, but we thought dark green would look better as everything was green on the car outside, interior and carpets.
    *maybe the mechanics made a mistake with the faux grill, if you say so.
    *I can show you pictures of the rear in baremetal and you can see, that nothing was ever done to the rear, even when the car was baremetal we did nearly find no rust at all.
    *the car was sold at RM in Maranello with warranty, because the cars restoration was just finished days before the auction only 29 test kilometers where done with the car.
    As you know a fresh engine should be run in at least a few hunderd miles and the cylinderheads should be thightend then, which was not done, when the car came back to the Dutch mechanic the car had only done like 50 kilometers and then we all know that gaskets could start to leak if the head are not thightend, So they changed the headgaskets and drove the car some miles and thightend the heads and serviced the car.
    About the windows they never complained and that would ofcourse would have been in warranty.
    the luggage was made in England by bespoke luggage and not by HVL.We had that made because Ferrari designed the car to be with fitted luggage was our thought and I hate the toolbags in the back.
    The prancing horse on the back is not correct, but the car had that for as long as I know the car, so we left it there, when the car was brought to Classiche before the auction they took the trumpets of and put the airfilter on, the trumpets where also on the car as long as we know the car, which was looked after in the seventies by the garage from David Clarke.
    PS
    I still have the original doorhandles which I bought from you,when I got them in with the post I found out they where replicas, you told me I was crazy, so I thought I had to be crazy, because you the specialist knew better, only a few years ago I met Al Wilsher from Alsa Automotive and he told me ,that once he made some which he Sold to you.

    Yours,
    Tonnie
     
  24. toto70_0

    toto70_0 F1 Rookie

    Sep 14, 2004
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    As far as the faux grill, I have looked at pictures of #5143 and many others but I see no difference in them.
     
  25. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

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    Hi Tonnie......I was expecting your response......I think I would understand your rational if you had restored the car for your own pleasure and use. If you intended to keep the car and preferred a different specification or thought your design was better than the original then this cannot be argued. However you restored the car with the intention of placing it in the market and you must therefore accept any criticism if the car is not as it should be. I stand by all the remarks I made which was not a crticism of you but of the unoriginality of the car. You say you dont like the original tool bag for the car but I seem to remember that you tried to buy one from me and didn't like my price. I can also clearly state that I have never heard of Mr Al Wilsher or done business with his company. I still congratulate you for what at the time was a world record price for a 250 GT Lusso paul
     

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