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250P #0816 won both 1963 and 1964 Le Mans.

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by miurasv, Aug 15, 2018.

  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #1 miurasv, Aug 15, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
    It was previously thought that 250P 0814 won 1963 Le Mans but according to RM Sotheby's, who have 250P 0816 for sale (Private Sales Dep't), Ferrari Classiche have stated that 0816 was actually raced at 1963 Le Mans using the paperwork of 0814, which was still being repaired after being seriously damaged at the Nurburgring in a practice accident the month before.

    See here: https://rmsothebys.com/en/home/private-sales/r0015-1963-ferrari-275-p/709254

    Also won 12 Hours of Sebring 1964.
     
  2. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Karting

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    A few observations, first this has to be considered the single most successful Ferrari of all time now (barring modern F1 cars). Value wise that alone should place the car near or above $50 million, no? Second, I'm not sure who owns 0814 now but I think their car just took a pretty good hit in value. Finally, is the car a 250 P or 275 P?
     
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  3. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    #3 Marcel Massini, Aug 15, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
    Here's 0814 after the practice crash for the Nürburgring 1000 kms 19 May 1963.
    First one is NOT my photo.

    Marcel Massini

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     

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  4. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Karting

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    I can see how the car may not have been ready to race (and win) at Le Mans a month later...
     
  5. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

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    Is 0814 still with the Chinetti family? That's the last update Barchetta.cc shows in its timeline.

    I don't normally promote conspiracy theory, but it does raise a question whether politics could be involved in this late revision of history?

    Conversion to 275P is noted as happening in 1964.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  6. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Most of the 1963 P series cars were run with the original 3 litre 250 engine and then fitted with 3.3 litre 275 or 4 litre 330 engine
    #0810 ran as a 250P and 330P
    #0812 as a 250P and 275P
    #0814 as a 250P and 275P
    #0816 as a 250P and 275P (currently a 275P)
    #0818 as a 330P
    #0820 as a 275P and 330P
    #0822 as a 330P
    #0824 as a 330P and 365P

    As for the actual #0814 (and for that matter #0812), these two cars were sold to Chinetti when the S.F. were finished with them and while #0812 was rebodied by Michelotti and #0814 caught fire and was severely burnt at Mont Tremblant. Both rested in the Chinetti graveyard until old car prices went up and in the very late 1980s they were sent to Proauto where a two decade long restoration commenced. This was massively delayed when Ferrari sued claiming the two cars were little more than replica's AND LOST. #0812 was covered in the thread below and owner Steve Hill was surprisingly frank and honest about what was still original in it, further it won a best of show award at Amelia Island in 2018 while #0814 is believed to still be part of the Chinetti collection, although they are slowly selling everything so it may have been sold. Where a Ferrari road car should be expected to be matching numbers, that would be unrealistic in a racing car of this period and in the light of that, what do we consider real?

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/0812-back-on-track.215382/page-5
    https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/september-2012/140/ferrari-faces-legal-challenge-old-ally
     
  7. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    #0816 is a beautiful car and bravo to RM Sothebys for securing the offer. I do wonder about the background to the choice to sell via RM private treaty dept. since Artcurials failure to sell. Will be fascinating to see what happens to the other cars in the collection. As for values, the 275P might be a great car BUT it isn't exactly beautiful like say a Testa Rossa or GTO and being a full race spec rear engined car it likely isn't as fun to drive, especially on the road. Perhaps somewhere in the high $30s or low $40s in million USD.
     
  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #8 miurasv, Aug 15, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
    12 Hours of Sebring, 1964.

    Other sources state the winner as being 0812, not 0816 as RM Sotheby's state so what's the story there?
     
  9. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    It will be very interesting to see if that has a major influence on those buying at this end of the market given most are seldom used anyway.
     
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  10. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie

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    If you have doubts you can ask Nino Vaccarella how bad the damage was after his accident:

    http://www.racingsportscars.com/results/Nurburgring-1963-05-19.html

    You can only tell so much from a photo, obviously there is suspension damage, bodywork but hard to tell if there is chassis damage. But yes a lot easier to change chassis numbers on another car, it was common practice.
     
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  11. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

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    I did, but hadn't read the full description from RM when I posted that response here. I had only seen the new claim recounted via one of their Instagram posts which didn't provide much detail. Also the rather public wranglings between Chinetti and Ferrari over the years fed the seeds of doubt - most should be familiar:

    https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/september-2012/140/ferrari-faces-legal-challenge-old-ally

    The factory records do seem to have painted a clearer picture. It is just very odd to think that no one bothered to consider these details for 55 years, and of course the number of history books that now need to be re-written. Also, having the auction house with an interest in selling the car for the highest profit making the pivotal announcement was strange. I would have thought such an important correction would be published first by Ferrari in some fashion.

    Certainly - have seen stories like that quite often, no question.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  12. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie

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    It certainly is an unusual way for such a major history correction to be announced.

    What thinketh Coco or whoever owns the other car?!;-)

    Popcorn ready:)!
     
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  13. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    As someone once pointed out, no matter how much money you spend on your toys, the ability to take the wife for a ride in it can make ALL the difference. Hence why single seaters, even the best, most important celebrated race winners are only worth a portion of a race winning GT/sportscar, as a rule. Even the spread in values between the highly usable 250GTO and the challenging 250LM tells a story. I am sure the sale of #0816 will still set a record for a P car but the equivalent Le Mans winning Testa Rossa would be just that much more.......
     
  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    RM Sotheby's have confirmed that factory records state that 0816 was driven by Parkes and Maglioli, who won the race, at the 12 Hours of Sebring, 1964
     
  15. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Which one did i see at Laguna Seca in 2016? I think it is owned by an fchatter.

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    ^^^0812.
     
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  17. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Karting

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    It makes sense given the long-term ownership of the car and the fact that no one had reason to doubt which chassis was driven at Le Mans in 1963. RM are the first to come along with the time, money, connections and vested interest in exploring this history. Just because they have a financial stake in the sale doesn't change the facts, and if Ferrari confirms this history via documentation that's enough to convince me.

    Keep in mind, we are still in the infancy of the world of automotive historians. No one really cared until 30 years ago. Despite all the great work of men like Marcel and many others on here, there is only so much they can research in any one day. There is a lot left to be discovered in the field! These are exciting times for auto history enthusiasts like us.
     
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  18. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    What kind of hair cut in value would this mean for a sn to lose such a pedigree? 50%?
     
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  19. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie

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    I was stating that precisely because in research for my books and articles since 1992 I have been fortunate to uncover a number of previously unknown facts or to correct misperceptions...yet it is usually not a manufacturer or auction house that comes up with such history corrections but outside independent researchers.

    So you are mostly correct but be aware that people did care not only 30 years ago but many decades before that and some of the finest automotive historians, researchers, writers managed to work their magic thanks to dogged determination and resourcefulness before WWII. When I was a young teenager in the 70's I read countless great articles from decades prior that were jewels...so be aware things did NOT start 30 years ago.

    Research, proper recording of the past has gone on for thousands of years in ALL fields since the ancient Greeks, Egyptians in the west and many thousands of years in China.

    All the best,

    M
     
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  20. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    0812 is owned since 2008 by JSL Motorsports (fchatter Steve Hill is a caretaker of this car).
    This car was in Amelia Island March 2018. You will also find an article about it in Forza magazine, issue #109 of May 2011. During 2009 this car was also on display in the Simeone Museum in PA.
    0812 underwent total restoration from 1990 to 2008 in Italy. The legal case was won by Chinetti 16 January 2002.

    Marcel Massini
     
  21. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    I agree with Marc Sonnery. Research is always super super important and should never be underestimated. History never stops and every day we will find out new things, sometimes small details, sometimes bigger stuff of more significance. This is why it is so extremely important to document every little detail, for the future.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  22. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    The rub is that #0814, the would be 1963 Le Mans winner, was later sold to Chinetti and burnt to a crisp at Mont Tremblant/Ste. Jovite and the rather well publicised restoration and law suit by Ferrari SPA in which they claimed that both #0812 and 0814 were fakes and breaches of their copyright are all well known. Anyone interested in either example would be aware of this and already discount them severely over a more pure example (such as #0810 or 0816) so the Le Mans win (or lack there of) will have little or no effect on the value for what many would consider a fake or at least a bitsa. Bearing in mind that #0818 was fatally crashed by Dick Petheroe at Oulton Park in '63 and so on and so forth, #0816 truly is a diamond in the rough.
     
  23. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for the history lesson. I had no idea about these stories. Is 0812 still considered a fake by Ferrari? Who did the resto job?
     
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  24. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Karting

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    Of course I don't mean to diminish your work or the work of those before you, what I meant was the field has only really taken off in the last 30 years. There was a much smaller group of enthusiasts and collectors who cared abut the details before then, these were just old race cars until they had a story attached. The rise in value of these cars since the 90's is a direct result of the meticulous documentation and research carried out in the field and I expect much more will continue to be discovered in the coming years.
     
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  25. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Hey Amenasce, the 250P thread has all the info needed, https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/139381628/ - this post even has a picture of the Ste. Jovite crash. Its fascinating reading, some claim that one or both of 0812 and 0814 have original chassis, some claim they don't. Who knows. Ferrari lost the court case but I doubt they would classiche it although they did red book Violattis #0818 which was a complete fake so again who knows.
     
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