275 GTC

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Furanku, Sep 9, 2010.

  1. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    356
    For a moment I considered writing a private message to Bill, but Till's last message made me change my mind and let everybody enjoy the thread!

    Bill, your information is extremely precious, but confuses me very much. You're talking about another GTC destroyed, which S/N are you talking about? My friend's car has all its numbers matching (chassis and engine have the same number), and was sold new to a possibly Italian man (at least his name sounds like it!), then spent 7 years in a museum somewhere in Europe, before being sold to my friend, probably not directly. If you are talking about another car, which is most probable, then there were 3 GTC built, or Ferrari got it wrong and mixed up my friend's GTC with another normal GTB. I'm sorry to bother you at such a busy time, but this story is getting more and more interresting!
     
  2. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    356
    Yes, there were 3carb and 6 carb GTB/C. I was only saying that both GTC I know about were 3 carb cars, so I assumed the 3rd one, if existing, would also be 3 carb. I have to admit this is a wild guess, and considering the very artisanal way cars were built at the time, they could have done anything, really... So forget my first guess, I really have no clue about the existence of other GTC!
     
  3. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Rookie
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    Dec 19, 2004
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    The plot thickens....

    I love this section of FChat. This type of thread doesn't come along every month and I am sure more experts will chime in.

    Furanku,

    Please try and convince your friend to share photos of the car and serial number. We don't bite. :)
     
  4. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    356
    Hehe, I'm quite sure you're all nice people, but I doubt really much my friend will allow me to post pictures of his car. He had some bad experience with a car he owned before, he found pictures of the car taken in front of his house in books, and he really did not like it! He's trusting me on this, and I really don't want to disapoint him. I don't share his taste for secrecy, but on the other hand I don't know what it's like to be paranoid when you have money and feel other people's jalousy, so I try to understand and respect his will.

    Anyway, the car looks like a regular 275 GTB, long nose, was blue Azzuro when sold new, repainted red rubino before he bought it, and he got it painted black 10 years ago. Black reaaaaly suits this car.
     
  5. Vintage V12

    Vintage V12 Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2004
    1,425
    Does it have 15 inch wheels on it with larger wheel well cut outs?
     
  6. Bjoern Schmidt

    Bjoern Schmidt Karting

    Mar 6, 2005
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    Stuttgart/Germany
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    Bjoern Schmidt
    Another 275 GTB which is stamped "GTC" is 08465, last seen in France, never raced. For me, these cars are not "Clienti Competizione" or whatever but just GTB's stamped "C" by mistake.

    Regards

    Bjoern
     
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  8. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    356
    My friend changed the wheels to 15 inch Borani wheels. Originaly it had 14 inch wheels, probably the same as 08457 on the picture posted above (at least the same design).
     
  9. Birel

    Birel Formula 3
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    Sep 12, 2005
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    Of course we must not forget the 1964 Pininfarina prototype for the later 330GTC which was built on 275GTS chassis number 6431 and referred to also as a 275GTC.

    I sold this particular car out of Italy many years ago and believe it is somewhere in USA now.

    It really just looks like a normal 330GTC and seeing as "GTC" is a description of the body style we are referring to I think its the one and only "275GTC"
     
  10. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Jack Verschuur
    The car in France, according to the OP, has an engine with 4 bolt mains. What engine type would that be? And are the same engines found in the other cars stamped like this?

    Somehow that doesn't make a lot of sense: If these were meant as competition models, why not build them with aluminium bodies, and even stranger, why would a car with a presumably stronger engine guse a 3-carb set-up instead of 6, which had proven to work well on the 275?

    It'd be most interesting to see the engine stamps and the build sheets for these 2 or 3 cars. Maybe Marcel can help out here?

    Bill, the engine that was transplanted out of the wreck into another 275, was it any different from a regular 2-cam?
     
  11. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    356
    You're talking about this car:

    http://autocollections.com/index.cfm?id=3698&action=details&tab=ondisplay&cartable=&sortorder=car,year&sr=8

    It really does look like a 330GTC. Was the chassis stamped 275GTC?
     
  12. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    356
    I'm not a specialist in Ferrari engines (or in any other engine...), so let me paste the description of 08457's engine found on the add:

    "This 275 GT'C' (believed to be 1 of only 2 built was delivered from the
    Ferrari Factory with a 4 bolt main engine (side and rear), which is a
    competition configuration used on the 250 TR, 250 GTO 275 LM's etc.
    Has the hot 130 cams (10 mm lift) which were developed for the 290 MM,
    then they were used in all the two cam V 12 250 and 275 comp Ferraris
    for the next ten years"

    The message here is not that it's the same engine as on 250GTO, since it's obviously a 3.3l and not a 3.0l, but just to say the 4 bolt main engine solution was previously used on competition cars.
    About my friend's car's engine, I know it's 4 bolt too, so I'm assuming it's the same engine as 08457. As for stamping, engines just have the chassis number stamped on it.

    About steel body, I had the same thought, but it may be explained by the fact those cars were meant to be driven on open roads too, and that alluminium body are extremely fragile.

    About 3 carb, it may be linked to race regulations of the time, I'm not sure about that.

    What would be interresting about engine stamps? I have pictures of both car's engine stamps, I can describe it (but probably not post it, as I said before), just tell me what you want to know. If it's a matter of trust (I'm new here, it's true I haven't proven I'm not just another liar!), I can send you some pics privately, feel free to contact me by private message!

    If anyone can help about build sheets, that would be awesome!
     
  13. Ferrari_250tdf

    Ferrari_250tdf Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2005
    259
    If this refers to the main bearing bridges then it is standard on any 275 engine. Have a look in the parts catalogue or at an engine. So absolutely nothing special here. Also the 10mm lift of the cams is standard to any 275 GTB. I know of an original 6C that shows a "staggering" 236 hp in the foglio montaggio. Way below the claimed 260 to 280.

    Matthias
     
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  15. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Thanks Mathias, I had no idea that all 275's had 4 -bolt mains.

    If we -tentatively- rule out any engine differences, there was mention of chassis differences: what are they?
     
  16. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    A number of 275 GTB's were raced by Privateers. The one I owned was entered in the Targa Florio. (Alloy 6 carb 2 cam)

    There is also no race regulation that would have prohibited 6 carb engines.
     
  17. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    356
    #40 Furanku, Sep 10, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2010
    Interresting. If this is true, then why would the mechanic who restored the engine tell my friend it was different from other 275 engines? I shall try to find out about this.

    Ferrari's "optimistic" hp are not new, but the figures you give us is quite disturbing! ;-)

    EDIT: I just called my friend. It turns out you're right, but he learned only 15 days ago that only first series of 275 had 2 bolt main bearing bridges, so 4 bolts don't mean the engine is special in any way. The only possible option is the chassis. My friend told me his car's handling is much better than other 275GTB2, and that he thinks the chassis could have been a kind of prototype for upcoming GTB/C. This is a guess, obviously. I don't know how we could make sure the chassis is different than normal 275 GTB in any way.

    The other piece of information he gave me is that both GTC we know about were delivered to their first owners directly by the factory, without going through dealers. His car's first owners were apparently two Italian guys, which makes me think it might have been for a racing team, but again this is a wild guess!

    To be continued...
     
  18. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    356
    I would not rule out engine differences yet, but about the chassis, I'll try to ask my friend this weekend.
     
  19. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    356
    Are you sure about the regulation part? If it's the case, then why would Ferrari have chosen to fit only 3 carbs on some of its 275 GTB/C, when it seems clear 6 carbs were better in terms of performance? I'm quite sure I read someting about this somewhere, obviously it could have been wrong too, I'm just trying to undersand!
     
  20. Ferrari_250tdf

    Ferrari_250tdf Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2005
    259
    The 275 was homologated in June 1965 by the ACI/FIA with the 3 40 DFI carb setup.

    Matthias
     
  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Mine raced at Targa Florio with 6.
     
  22. billnoon

    billnoon Formula 3
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    The main bearing bolts reference needs to clarify that they are both larger and of a higher tensile strength to keep the crank from "walking" at high rpms.

    6 carbs were an option but not homologated with the 275 GTB at the base "GT" level of race classification, same for an alloy body.

    Basically beginning sometime very late 1965 / early 1966 if you wanted to run the FIA's version of "showroom stock" in a 275GTB, there were very few modifications allowed.

    Later changes by Ferrari and different classes of racing did allow and accommodate for lower homologated weight (alloy) bodies as well as other options such as six carbs and a variety of other changes.

    By the way, this is one reason that the very base and usually thought of very boring early "plain Jane" 1965 275 GTBs with no options and standard steel bodies have become a popular pick for historic racing in Europe. With nothing but a few safety mods, they meet the homologated "GT" rules and can participate in many events. Of course they are hopelessly uncompetitive for the most part but a really cool ride nonetheless!

    Cheers,

    Bill
     
  23. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    356
    #46 Furanku, Sep 10, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2010
    If I understand well, we have here the reason why the GTC models i'm talking about, both built in 1966 (probably April or May for my friend's car), were fitted with steel bodies and 3 carbs.

    About the engine itself, I remember now that my friend told me he heard his car's engine was design to endure up to 10,000 rpm, when normal GTB engines where not supposed to go any faster than 8,000.

    Bill, if I send you a picture of the engine bearing bolts, would you be able to tell us if they are indeed "special"?
     
  24. billnoon

    billnoon Formula 3
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    No, probably not. I think you would need to have both out and a side by side for a comparison plus be able to decode the stampings on the top of the head of the bolt to know ther tolerances, brunel strength etc...

    No matter what you did to stabilize the crank, no 275 motor is going to be able to deal with the reciprocating loads of mass at 10,000rpm!!! The idea likely behind the engine internal improvements was same red-line while on the track but keeping the engine together for 100,000 kilometers or so of regular road use between overhauls.

    On a "race-only" engine, hours only overhauls are the norm. On a road engine that is sometimes raced, the idea is overhaul at time of need rather than hours of use.

    Cheers,

    Bil
     
  25. Simon

    Simon Moderator
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    Aug 29, 2003
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    A big thank you for that. This is a great thread and it would be a pity to miss out on any of the information from Fchat's most knowledgeable. Looking forward to the next installments.

    Cheers
    Simon
     
  26. BIGHORN

    BIGHORN Formula Junior

    Sep 18, 2006
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    JOHN F KELLY
    Direct factory sales and delivery was not uncommon up thru the Daytonas, and some into the 365/BBs. I dont regard this as significant. My Daytona was a direct sale in 1972.

    If the 275 GTC was a prototype for the GTB/c I would think it would have the lighter weight frame rails and bodywork of those cars.

    With all due resect to Bill no reference to 275GTCs, to my knowledge, occurs in any of the extensive Ferrari litature.
     
  27. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    356
    I'm not sure about the prototype thing either, coming to think of it, what would be the point in making a prototype that you would immediately sell to privateers? you wouldn't be able to learn from its weaknesses.

    Anyway, even though it's deffinitely not documented in any books, it is a fact that at least two chassis were stamped 275 GTC, and I doubt it could have been a simple mistake.

    Bill, thanks again for the rpm information. Could you share with us the chassis number Ferrari told you was the destroyed GTC?
     

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