275 GTC

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Furanku, Sep 9, 2010.

  1. billnoon

    billnoon Formula 3
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    Nope, afraid that mystery holds some potential profit for me and my kids need to eat!

    The oddity "275 GTC" variants were not prototypes. They were in fact the exact opposite. At least in the case of the car we had, it was built for a client who wanted to race in some main events, in a Ferrari in the "stock GT" class as well as drive the car to and from the races as well as regularly on the road. No modifications or alterations are were allowed and the car's were basically "showroom stock" so no dry sumps, small frames, alloy bodies, six-carbs, outside fuel fillers etc... Think plain and boring and this is what the allowed. Kinda cool if you ask me. Wish I was there, then and had the bucks to give it a try. (I was barely a year old when our car was built!)

    If you wanted to go racing in that period and clocking 100,000 or so kilometers on the road was not part of the equation you bought a 275 GTB/C, Dino SP, or even a "P" car.

    On the other hand if getting to and from work, using the car on the road and flogging it on the track on the weekend was of interest, the "275 GTC" was one way to go circa 1966. That is if you wanted a little horse on the front end of your ride.

    Cheers,

    Bill
     
  2. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    Bill, do you have an idea of how many of the "showroom stock" 275 GTCs were built? Are there going to be more than 2 that are actually stamped that way or did the factory ultimately start stamping all of them 275 GTB?

    Jeff
     
  3. billnoon

    billnoon Formula 3
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    I have only direct knowledge (i.e; touched, played, inspected, drove etc... our old car) I was told by Ferrari of one other they were aware of built and stamped the same way... There could have been others. If there were, some owners may not even realize the frame is stamped "275 GTC" rather than "275 GTB."

    Cheers,

    Bill
     
  4. BIGHORN

    BIGHORN Formula Junior

    Sep 18, 2006
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    This is interesting that some GTCs were made that were basically stock to be used as racers when plenty of regular GTBs were doing pretty good in races; The Fillipinetti road equipped GTB ( the Heuvink book states that it was not a lightweight) that was a class winner at LeMans comes to mind.
     
  5. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

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    Now, if there are no demonstrable differences with the regular GTB, what was the point of the different stamping?
     
  6. Birel

    Birel Formula 3
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    That's the car, it was a nice dark Rosso Nearco or similar many years ago, sorry I cannot remember the chassis stamping but suspect it might even still have been 275GTS(omething) ?? And I only have one or 2 old photos of the car in general. It was said the 2 stop watches on the dash were fitted for Mr EF.
     
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  8. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
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    #57 Julio Batista, Sep 13, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2010
    This is indeed a fascinating discussion. I remain however totally unconvinced that there is such a thing as a 275 GTC.

    1. There is still not even one mention of a Ferrari 275 GTC in ANY Ferrari litterature or documentation over the past 45 years. No book, catalogue, brochure, article, interview, year book, road test, manual, or official Ferrari publication mentions a Ferrari 275 GTC at any time.

    2. This thread doesn't have a single picture! Not even a picture of the "275 GTC" stamp!

    3. I see no reasonable and clear description of the eventual differences between a "275 GTC" and other 275 variations.

    4. I called my uncle in Rome who told me that he had never sold a 275 GTC, because there had never been a 275 GTC.

    At this point, I think the most likely explanation of the "275 GTC" stamp is that it's simply a mistake. It wouldn't be the first one!

    Cheers,

    Julio
     
  9. billnoon

    billnoon Formula 3
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    Hi Julio,

    I thought the same thing having never heard of such a car for almost 20 years until one showed up one day at our door step. Except for some internal engine reinforcements for engine life and reliability it was bone stock. Steel body, three carbs etc...

    The car had homologated options / improvements that could be had on any 275 at the time the car was built. These were limited to the higher profile cams, higher compression ratio pistons and an Abarth type exhaust system.

    The car was quite heavy coming in at almost 3,000lbs so certainly no light weight.

    It was however purposely built this was, stamped as such and raced regularly when new in some major CSIA / FIA sanctioned events.

    The stamping was no mistake. I have seen plenty of "Ferrari" botched stampings that nowadays, drive current owners and historians nuts. At least on this car and one other it was not a mistake but quite clear and purposeful, done by Ferrari for clients and done so on purpose so that upon inspection prior to racing the officials could see it clearly. Send me a private email at bnoon@symbolicmotors.com and I will email you a photo. Share and send it to anyone as you see fit.

    Cheers,

    Bill
     
  10. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    356
    Hello everybody,

    Well this discussion turned out to be quite interresting after all! Once again I'm sorry I can't post the pictures on this forum, I was again specificaly asked by my friend not to post any picture of his car. Actually I can understand his point of view, since I already found 2 pictures of one of his former cars taken in his garden, and even his name written in a thread of this forum! Again, if you want to see the pictures, don't hesitate to contact me by private message.

    Bill's explainations are consistent with the fact that the mechanic who restored my friend's car's engine had told him the engine was not a regular 275 GTB engine. Anyway, a mechanic specialized in vintage Ferrari should come this week to my friend's place to repair some slight problems on the 275, I will try to take a leave on this day and meet with him, we'll be able to talk details about this car. I'll let you know if I learn anything of interrest!

    Thank you all for your comments!
     
  11. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie

    Mar 29, 2007
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    This thread is great.

    i love how some people say well if I haven't read it in a book, and I don't know it and this other guy I talked to doesn't know about it then it never existed... Especially when Bill Noon has done the research on it, touched one, drove one, owned one etc...

    I guess thats good for him, that way when he comes across another one people will just say... ehh... its just a standard car... no biggie... and then he will say. YES... just standard... YES... thats the ticket... and then be able to feed his family when he sells it. Ignorance of others can work for you sometimes I guess.

    Thank you Bill for the clarification on the existence of these cars.

    I am trying to get a better understanding of the differences in GTB and GTC though... What was the difference? Was it that they were all built plain jane and if it has any options it wouldn't qualify for racing therefore the GTC is the homologation special BUT... is also like the base stripper model??? I know thats not completely the case but am just trying to give an example.
     
  12. BIGHORN

    BIGHORN Formula Junior

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    +1 Julio.
     
  13. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
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    Hi Bill,

    Again, thank you for the interesting discussion, and for all the details you provide. I will PM you soon.

    Incidentally, the person I consulted on this matter has been selling Ferraris, including a few to my father, over the past fifty years, with exclusive distribution in the Center and South of Italy. He and Marcel Massini have been absolute references for me over the past few decades. Of course, neither he nor Marcel are perfect...

    I look forward to more posts on this thread about the mistery 275 GTC. All posts have added to the discussion, with of course the notable exception of your fanboy, which is unsuccessfully attempting to turn a civilized debate into an argument. He shall be ignored.

    Cheers,

    Julio
     
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  15. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie

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    Woah woah woah...

    My intention was not to start a fight. I am sorry if it came across that way. I guess after rereading my post I could see how it could be interpreted that way... however, that honestly wasn't my intent.

    Seeing as I have ZERO interest or stake in this whole thing I am kind of surprised at the backlash... but hey... perhaps with the way my post is written I might have deserved it.

    As far as status of "fanboy" Actually, I am not a fan of symbolic motors if I might say so myself for personal reasons, AND Bill Noon couldn't pick me out in a crowd of one.


    My point was more of a blanket statement... I see many people who come on here especially in the vintage section and argue facts with some of our beloved experts who are on here... Such as Marcel.. and they really don't know what they are talking about. Perhaps its not the case this time around... but I still stand behind what I said, I will stand behind what Bill Noon said because he has personal experience with one of the actual cars in question and is a professional in the biz. I would say that is a pretty fair side to back.
     
  16. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
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    Cool!

    I fuly agree with you on the uninformed arguers. In my book of shame they come a close second after the replica crowd. However, unlike the fake-lovers, the uninformed are not always easy to identify, especially off the bat...

    I don't have the pleasure of knowing Bill Noon. I am neither standing behind him nor standing in front of him: We are just having a highly instructive discussion (well, instructive for me at least), after 40 years of passion I am still learning, because as you know Ferrari matters are rarely what they seem... I also have zero material interest in this matter: 275's are very great Ferraris, but they do not fit my budget right now, and they are a bit too "modern" for my taste.

    Cheers!

    Julio
     
  17. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    If that is the case, what would be the purpose of such stamping? There are a few examples where the best explanation seems to be that an uninformed worker did something wrong until things returned back into normal. I see no reason why this wouldn't be one such case. I understand that the owner would like to think his car is very special, but don't we all?

    Best wishes, Kare
     
  18. BIGHORN

    BIGHORN Formula Junior

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    The best answer is often the most straightforward-The stamping was a mistake. I do not represent myself as knowlegeable as Bill or others, but I have been around these cars for 40+ years and have seen a lot of Factory mis labeling. Just a few examples- 275 GTS described on build sheet as Scagletti Berlinetta, non existant carb types on build sheet, Heritage certificates with paint and interior colors reversed, 330GTS with engine type # instead of S/N stamp on the block (this was a new car at a dealer).
     
  19. 275gtb6c

    275gtb6c Formula 3
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    #67 275gtb6c, Sep 14, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2010
    The value on the chassis stamps is currently totally overrated in my opinion. At that time no one was interested apart from customs in stamped numbers. For the new owner this information was completely irrelevant, something like the bithday of your mother in law.....

    I do think fresh owners of the Ferrari's were interested if their body was alloy (ref to the Supperleggera badges on some Maserati's and AM and so), number of carbs and quality of building.

    As for now I dont even know my license plates let alone chassis numbers of my modern cars, I do know the birthday of my wife though....(always forget when we got married...)
    Just my opinion, but than again I can be in the herd of noknowers
    ciao
    Oscar
     
  20. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I agree. Race History if any has value like Mark's that ran at the Ring but the one the factory raced or an alloy one, 6 carbs, outside fuel filler are more interesting to me than a steel 3 carbed one with no race history.
     
  21. billnoon

    billnoon Formula 3
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    At least according to Ferrari's modern personal, the chassis stamping was done purposely to distinguish the car for "GT" racing for a private client in the lowest / stock level category.

    Porsche did the exact opposite in period at the same time on at least two 911R models. The chassis number on one of our 911R models was stamped "11899002P" rather than the way it was listed in all of the "history" books and chassis lists which identified the car as "11899002R." Initially this gave us quite a bit of concern as the car had been missing since the late 1960s and we were concerned we had purchased a fake.

    When I inquired with Porsche about the "P" in the chassis number rather than an "R" they explained that there was great concern that a client would enter a 911R in a "GT" race and Porsche would risk loosing the homologation status of the 911, 911L Rally and 911S models.

    The "P" for "Prototype" would make it impossible during scruitineering for an entrant to pass the car off as a production "GT" as the officials would have copies of the homologation documents for each model as well as the homologated chassis number range as approved by the officials.

    Right about 1966/67, Ferrari as did Porsche and several other manufacturers made it impossibly easy for both the Factory Teams as well as clients to switch and swap chassis numbers at will on their homologated race cars. Rather than using elaborate chassis stamps on special sections of the frames, they would simply stamp a 3, 4 or 5 digit number onto a small metal tag and tack weld this in an easy to see area. This would allow for numbers to be swapped at the track or anywhere at will as needed to meet race requirements.

    I would guess more than 1/2 of the 917 Porsches have had numbers changed in order to meet entry deadlines when a car was damaged etc... and another had to be substituted. Ferrari did the same thing on a variety of 312P and 512S/M models at the same time.

    Today collectors are shocked to think that the manufacturers might do such a thing but believe it or not, the practice was quite common.

    In the case of the 275 "GTB" and oddity "GTC" variant, the chassis stampings are done on with a block die that contains a slew of information and done so in a very precise way. While not impossible to make a mistake, you would have to really bone-up to mistakenly use a "C" rather than "B" when organizing the letters and numbers into the press block prior to making the stamp. Unlike the chassis tag which is pop-rivetted on, the chassis stamps are what Customs will look at during import and export of a given vehicle.

    Hope this helps,

    Bill
     
  22. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Fascinating stuff. Thanks Bill
     
  23. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Block stampings were changed as well to match carnets. In 67 Ferrari admits to have swapped the identies of 0856 and 0858. The chassis tags are as you've described but the last digit of block stamping were also altered and altered back. There are other blocks that were altered as well. PPP has photo's of altered block stamps.
     
  24. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

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    Can anyone translate this:

    Le "4000 Prototipo" non saranno le sole macchine "sport" per la prossima stagione. Fra le "sport" (minimo 50 esemplari) vi saranno le "Le Mans", e fra le "gran turismo" (minimo 500 esemplari) le "275 GT/B" il cui impiego in corsa, pero, sara lasciato exclusivament ai clienti. Ci sara, ovviamente, anch un certo numero di Dino. Costruite le prime 50 unita, anche questo tipo di vettura potra correre solo in mano a privati."

    From Quattroruote, January 1966, "Ferrari Svela (con cautela) i suoi piani per il 1966"
     
  25. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Rookie
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    From my friend:

    I'll try but it's written for someone who knows car lingo...

    The 4000 Prototype won't be the only sport car for the next season. Among the sport (minimum 50 exceptions) there will be "le Mans" and among the "grand Turismo" (minimum 5000 exceptions) the 275GT/B in which will be done right now however will be left exclusively to the clients. There will be, obviously a certain number of 'Dino'.

    There will be 50 units built, also this type of car can run only in the hands of private (clients?customers?)
     
  26. Mark Shannon

    Mark Shannon Formula Junior
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    #74 Mark Shannon, Sep 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2011
    I have seen a 275 GTB, that does not appear to be either the cars talked about by Furanku or Bill and is not Mark K's car, with the chassis stamping "275 GTC". The engine was out of the car, so I cannot tell you anything else about that.

    Otherwise it looked completely normal.

    Mark Shannon
     
  27. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    356
    Mystery thickens every day... I really wish Marcel Massini could give us his point of view on that matter, but I understand from other threads he doesn't have much time these days to share his very impressive knowledge.
    I hope we will eventually find the light and get a clear answer about this big question mark.
    Thank you all for your inputs!
     

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