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288 GTO Boost pressure?

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari/F80' started by Motob, May 8, 2008.

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  1. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,365
    Frederick, Maryland
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    Brian Brown
    #1 Motob, May 8, 2008
    I just test drove a 288 GTO after servicing it, and it felt kind of slow as compared to what I remember. Ferrari lists the standard boost pressure as .9 Bar, but the maximum boost on this particular car is .5 Bar. When you are cruising along and dip into the throttle, the boost will spike up to .5 bar and then level off at .4 Bar and at full throttle it will just sit at .4 Bar.

    The car has very low miles (500), and runs very well otherwise. The lead seal is still on the wastegate, so it has never been apart. I am thinking that the wastegate spring may have sacked out over time. But I thought that I would see what boost pressures other 288 owners normally see.

    Thanks,
    Brian B.
     
  2. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
    2,669
    Boston
    #2 dan360, May 9, 2008
    My car happilly would run up against the 0.9bar/13psi listed in the manual. It did however then decide to go beyond this triggering the little red light - this can be considered to be VERY bad - the extra boost is kind of exciting, but it can wreck your engine pretty quickly.

    My car is therefore apart at the moment and having a new wastegate component fabricated. There was a hole in the internal diaphram inside the wastegate.

    Good luck trying to find a wastegate or parts if you need new stuff. The factory price is 5K for the wastegate but they don't have one. We were offered one in Europe for 13K which we declined. All I need is a diaphram, which we're having fabricated. That will no doubt be a few K in the end but less than 13.

    Your symptoms are the opposite of mine so its sounds more like early release and you are losing pressure where mine was sticking closed.
     
  3. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #3 Napolis, May 9, 2008
  4. EMILIO

    EMILIO F1 Veteran

    Feb 23, 2006
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    #4 EMILIO, May 9, 2008
    5k for a wastegate is a rip off
     
  5. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
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    #5 dan360, May 9, 2008
    So is 16K for an F1 pump which is the price for the 355 F1 pump (a 360 part is about 1K). Welcome to the world of Ferrari Supercars. If you want the Ferrari part you have to pay even if its made by some other company. You can do the research to try and work out what wastegate it is, but its a 23 yr old one so a less than simple exercise.
     
  6. RufMD

    RufMD F1 Rookie
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    Jan 31, 2004
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    #6 RufMD, May 9, 2008
    Dan, if you ever post a pic of a greddy wastegate on your car, I will come looking for you :)
     
  7. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

    May 23, 2006
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    #7 joe sackey, May 9, 2008
    Brian,

    The 288 is set up to achieve .9 Bar at full boost and as you can see from Dan's remarks, it should achieve just that. The car you test-drove is achieving about half this level and it is clearly not operating correctly. However, if it has traveled just 500 miles in 23 years, the cause of its anemic boost performance could be something (mechanical or electrical) other than the the waste gate, as you may have surmised.

    So before we recommend which part you need and from what supplier, let us know please what you find out after a thorough inspection, will you? I may have some ideas...

    Joe
    www.joesackey.com
     
  8. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    #8 Motob, May 10, 2008
    Hi Joe,
    The car just had a complete service. Cam belts and seals, all filters, fluids and spark plugs were replaced. Cam timing and valve clearances are spot on. Plug wires, distributor caps and rotors checked out good. As I said before, the car runs great with no missing or flat spots, it just feels soft under full throttle. Fueling and ignition feel good under all other conditions.

    I will check fuel pressures, but it seems like the low boost situation has to be wastegate related? I guess that theoretically one turbo could be seized. What ideas do you have?

    Regards,
    Brian
     
  9. mattymouse33

    mattymouse33 F1 Rookie

    Oct 25, 2004
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    #9 mattymouse33, May 10, 2008
    I didnt know the 288GTO was turbo'd.
     
  10. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    #10 joe sackey, May 10, 2008
    Exactly my point: you'll have to discount inoperative turbos and a recalcitrant fuel system before determining that the wastegate needs attention.

    Joe
    www.joesackey.com
     
  11. Jimbo49

    Jimbo49 Formula 3

    Aug 5, 2004
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    #11 Jimbo49, May 10, 2008
    What type of turbos are they, and what are the blades made out of? Are they ceramic or stainless steel?
     
  12. shill288

    shill288 Formula Junior

    Feb 24, 2005
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    #12 shill288, May 15, 2008
    Brian,

    If that car is the one in the East Bay that was at Virtuoso (ex-Todd Smather's car) that is not achieving boost, then send me a PM.

    Steve
     
  13. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

    Apr 29, 2005
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    #13 DM18, May 15, 2008
  14. shill288

    shill288 Formula Junior

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    #14 shill288, May 17, 2008
    Brian,

    The most common cause of this is the diaphragm gets perforations in it over time. Of course, Ferrari doesn't sell the diaphragm as a spare part. But, the boys that make the turbos for CART, etc. could probably make you one.

    Have you actually taken the wastegate apart yet?

    Is the car bone stock? People have a bad habit of modifying these cars.

    Steve
     
  15. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    #15 joe sackey, May 17, 2008
    Steve, have we even determined this is a waste gate issue?
     
  16. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    #16 Motob, May 18, 2008
    No the car is a different car.
     
  17. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    #17 Motob, May 18, 2008
    Steve, if the wastegate diaphragm was perforated, then the boost pressure would be too high. The boost pressure acts on the diaphragm against the spring, opening the valve. If the diaphragm has holes in it, then the valve doesn't open. Our problem is the reverse, so either the spring has lost tension, or the valve is leaking, or as Joe has suggested there are fueling problems. The car is bone stock aside from DOT/EPA mods.

    The customer has decided to drive the car as it is before looking into the boost problem.
     
  18. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    #18 joe sackey, May 18, 2008
    Somehow, based on the symptoms you have described, I don't think this is waste gate related
     
  19. shill288

    shill288 Formula Junior

    Feb 24, 2005
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    #19 shill288, May 19, 2008
    Brian,

    Well, theory aside, I had a 288 GTO (not mine) with low boost pressure, we took apart the wastegate and the diaphragm had a small tear in it. We replaced the diaphragm (parts were available back then) and the boost pressure was normal. Nothing else was wrong with wastegate or the fuel system.

    Steve
     
  20. Jaws

    Jaws Karting

    Nov 30, 2006
    191
    New England - USA
    #20 Jaws, May 19, 2008
    I would try a helper spring on the wastegate (even wire closed for a quick test) and if that does not help then do a pressure test on the intake system and make sure there are no boost leaks.
     
  21. PerryC07

    PerryC07 Karting
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    May 30, 2008
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    Perry C
    #21 PerryC07, May 30, 2008
    ^+1. Pressurizing the system is probably the most efficient way to diagnose this problem. Have the system tested, but use deligence in the ammount of pressure supplied. 7lb of pressure should be plenty to let the monster show its head, if indeed that is the problem. Even the smallest pin hole can cause this issue.

    -Also, have you checked your reference line to make sure that your waste gate is getting the appropriate input? Another option.

    -Lastely, as he stated above, I would check the spring. Diaphram is not the source as you said because it would allow for a creep condition.

    Best of luck, and if you need any other assistance please PM me.
     
  22. Alex1015

    Alex1015 Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2005
    949
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    #22 Alex1015, May 30, 2008
    Heh, if you pay enough you'll probably still be able to get it certified regardless...
     

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