296 VS

I was reading an article about cars' weight the other day and FChat popped into my mind. This fixation on a single number is absurd.


"As I write I contemplate the prospect of prosecution for high treason in the Court of evo, judges Meaden, Barker, Gallagher presiding, but I’m going to carry on anyway. Let me play devil’s advocate for a just moment. What is it exactly that we hate so much about weight in a car? Is it intrinsically awful, or is our ire actually more for the dynamic symptoms that can manifest as a result of it, without the right management?

I found myself contemplating exactly how much of an irritant I find excessively bloated kerb weights in a car's spec sheet to be following driving a few fairly heavy cars and enjoying them, morbid obesity be damned, quite a bit. The BMW M2 (1705kg), the new BMW M5 Touring (2475kg), the Aston Martin Vantage Roadster (1730kg), the Bentley Continental GTC (2639kg). All are quite spectacularly heavier than one might traditionally hope and yet, what actually matters, is that they all drive to a very high standard.

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Other evo favourites are relative heavyweights too. The Nissan GT-R (c/1740kg) and BMW M5 CS (1825kg) are hardly slender, nor the Maserati MC20 (c1700kg, as measured by us), yet all have eCoty titles to their name. Nor is the most recent AMG GT (1895kg) much of a racing snake. Coming in from the other direction are cars whose predecessors simply would not deserve a mention in the same breath as any bonafide performance cars only a decade ago – the Range Rover Sport SV (2485kg) and Defender Octa (2510kg). All offer the thrill of driving in spite of their mass, leveraging extraordinary engineering solutions in the name of its management.



And that's all we should care about, right? Okay, there are other reasons to find excess weight irksome, other symptoms it presents that are all but impossible to engineer around: increased wear on consumables like brakes and tyres, reduced efficiency and the toll it takes on performance. I can confirm the butt dyno does not contradict bhp/ton figures: the new M5 feels slower than the old M5 CS.


But honestly, the excess mass of the cars mentioned far from compromises the driving experience to a commensurate extent. Maybe the M5's ride is a bit choppy, owing to the fact that M just hasn’t quite nailed the effective spring rates relative to its mass. But otherwise, it's controlled, agile, collected, its rear-steering, adaptive damping, xDrive AWD and active M differential working in concert to shrink that kerb weight in your mind’s eye.

If anything, knowing exactly how astonishingly dense it is only has you grinning with childish fascination as you're swept along for the ride, as it does the seemingly impossible things it can do and executes your bidding with baffling rapidity and response. Like the viral video of the rotund chap on the skateboard, doing a flip and informing us on the other side of the camera that 'this is what peak male performance looks like,’ there's value in and fascination to be enjoyed with the capabilities of Munich's porkiest protagonist, relative to its paunch.

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The Range Rover Sport hasn’t been turned into a 911 GT3 in drag, simply by virtue of the SV's amazing 6D dynamics hydraulically cross-linked suspension system. But it really is very very good. And such is the deftness with which Aston Martin has prepared the latest Vantage and Vantage Roadster that I can’t imagine anything more than a 3 per cent improvement in its road manners coming from a 15 per cent (240-255kg) loss in weight.

Snapping out of our thought experiment, what can we conclude? Weight surely matters, enormously. The less of it there is, the less the big brains have to birth fascinating engineering solutions to manage it. It matters even more if you want to take your car on track, where the forces of inertia will make every extra kilogram feel like four. The meaty machines aforementioned will surely immolate their tyres and brakes when subjected to such abuse at an increased rate relative to lighter alternatives and predecessors.

But just as judging every car by its 0-62 time is inexcusably boring and one-dimensional, so too do we risk dismissing some truly great cars on account of our judging their weight to be in excess. I got in the M5 ready to slate it and got out a smiling convert. Fat cars can be good too.

https://www.evo.co.uk/bmw/m5/207899/car-enthusiasts-are-obsessed-with-weight-but-im-not-sure-i-care

 

Weight matters. How a car manages its’ weight and how it feels matters more.

 

I have a G99 M5 and can confirm it is silly fun, like the Dakar and GR Corolla.

On Pilot Sport 5 it feels more agile than at least the Cayenne Turbo E-Hybrid (though Cayenne sounds better). Both have even more instantaneous torque than the 296. And yes in the M5 you can feel the weight on serious bumps, but side to side agility isn't bad. Steering weight feels better than 296 but there's no real feel.

Normally I don't think good cars need exhausts but I would say the G99 could use it though.

Still it is a fun daily in its way and the touring gets more attention than even 2RS, 458, and 296 though not so annoying as a lower % of people try to turn it into a race.

 

Agree re engine sound but I do wish that on and off throttle didn't make the tweety bird sound, that and the on throttle whistle is the reminder for me that it's a turbo.

 

I know a fellow 296 owner who prefers the 296 steering as is but it still feels spooky to me to not have the feedback. In the dry the agility and chassis feel is enough to compensate but in the wet it's uncomfortable to me to not feel the wheels. Maybe with more driving especially in the wet my opinion will change.

On the track the STO's superpower (even over Tecnica and Performante) was traction but the front end also felt a lot more nimble than Evos and other Huracans. I thought it might be an interesting car to own. But on the street going to the sportiest mode I agree makes the car feel sluggish. A lot of cars nowadays weight up the steering in sport mode and the Huracan and big brother Lambos or even BMWs doesn't have an Ego/individual mode to keep steering in "comfort" on the street.

Personally I am hoping the 296 Speciale has a bit more road/wheel feel (I'd actually like it to be Evora level kicking back) but I doubt it will. And I will still buy it if I can and try to drive the wheels off. But in combo with 4RS that is modern, fast, and comfortable enough for, and sounds even more amazing, to me.

 

I got to drive a 992.2 GTS last week. Disclaimer - it had less than 250 miles, and was on Goodyear F1 which did not help the car in my opinion. Comparing to consider swapping either Dakar or 991 3RS for one since 3RS w/ DSC controller and sofas is effectively an alt daily for me.

I was not impressed w the 992.2 GTS.

I thought it sounded good but the Dakar sounds better.

Torque fill was way better than the 4cyl C63 but not as good as 296, M5, or Porsche hybrids.

Launch with brake torque was close to instant but without it did this dance that non-RS PDKs seem to do where it raises the revs briefly then engages. Made the car feel slower off the line than hybrid should.

Didn't really feel faster than Dakar (which is a 992.1 GTS platform) if at all.

And worst, the steering felt soft and car less nimble than the Dakar, much less 992.1 GTS. Could be tires but not sure.

991 3RS or 992 GT3 or RS is almost as fast to *start* off the line due to more instantly engaging the engine.

Ride was very smooth relative to even Dakar and it can have ACC, comfort entry, and vent seats over Dakar or GT3/RS. But so can a 992.1 GTS.

While maybe on Cup2s and with some breakin time it'd do better, I was expecting better based on the reviews, but on first drive it's not tempting me to ditch Dakar or 991 3RS. The G90/G99 M5 does need a few hundred miles to get instant in its torque application so will try to find a 1000+ mile GTS w 4S or Cup2 and re-evaluate.

 

Every single iteration of a car is a recognition and kneel down to government "mandates".

Think smaller engines, forced induction, start/stop, quieter exhausts (or OPF), etc.

How is hybrid (or even BEV) any different?

 

The tradeoff as Realzeus notes is that you can be precise and the 296 is not very fatiguing to drive 'hard' because of the easy steering, but it's still very sharp. Even then, on the track you have to use some force to throw it through a corner at 75mph+, which is also a factor of the relatively high weight of the car. Couple of hours on a fast cruise is no problem.

It's all about mission purpose and I expect that the Speciale is set to transmit a little more through the wheel, but maybe I'm wrong and it's the same rack.

 

This is a point I wanted to make. Some drivers mistake steering weight for feeling. They are two totally different things. Personally, I don't like overly heavy feeling steering racks, as they slow down the steering process and make the car sluggish (or it seems so to its driver).

On a separate note, when power steering was introduced into F1, the best drivers in the world said that it made a huge difference in how nimble the cars immediately felt to them.

 

The bird chirp?? I thought I was imagining. Thanks for the confirmation.

 

I tried an experiment today. On a rough patch of road that I’m quite familiar with, today I held the steering wheel just with the tips of my fingers. Lots and lots of communication. Once that feedback was set in my awareness I was able to perceive feedback more clearly. Imagine being used to listening to music on level 10 and then turning it down to 1. At first it’d be like wow I can’t hear any nuance. But stay with it for some time and the ears adjust and the nervous system gets used to the new volume. I’ll have to explore this further. I’m convinced the feedback is all there. If requires subtle clarity in perception. I’m sticking to this story for now.

 

Interesting! I am always gripping the wheel normally.

I will give it a shot when I am back.

It's funny, I had a different but related experience driving a McLaren for some distance last month. At first I was so distracted by things vibrating (not an LT) that I didn't notice that I could feel the road and front wheels. Once I was attuned to it it was no problem to feel it again and continually, even when distracted by its turbo lag and annoying randomly moving vibrations.

 

I can't decide whether so many modern cars get so heavy feeling in sport mode because it actually is better at speed/on track - it didn't feel nearly as weird on the STO on track though but my track time is very limited all around.

Or as you suggest because people will be pacified with (constant) weight and think they're feeling something. It's sort of like they dial in whatever they think steering should feel like at max load-up and make it feel that heavy with the wheels pointed straight (or anywhere).

I am sure someone(s) at Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, etc knows as it's pretty common that cars are tuned that way now.

 

I have had this discussion with chassis engineers and even the legendary test driver Valentino Balboni, of Lamborghini's fame (what a gent, he was complimentary about all rival manufacturers!!!). I came to the conclusion that it all came down to the personal preferences of each engineer and/or test driver. Same applies to suspension compression and rebound values. Surely, they have some target values that they need to achieve (the infamous Italian cobblestone road test), but they all do it a bit differently.

 

By your logic, it really isn’t. But to my point, it’s not only this one change, but it’s the number of changes as well as the degree of each of them.

My main point is the hybrid Ferrari models present many changes, all at once, to a group of people who are willing to accept certain changes, but in general, are wanting more of the same. As enthusiasts, we know what we like, and we’d like more of it, please. But they changed the style and design, they changed the interface, they changed the price point, and yes, they changed the drive system. To begin with the drive system, I think @NGooding provided a great explanation, it does remove you a little bit further from the workings of the machine. In theory, this happens with every generation. But in practice, when you consider it as part of the total picture- my point is that it’s a lot of change. And the biggest is the hybrid system, which, unfortunately, has a lot of politics mixed into it. I think they would have been better advised to have made a greater effort to promote the hybrid as a technology which adds to the combustion performance and enhances the experience, even if they intended to do this, its not how it is perceived by many people. Which is a bit of a shame. As I know many enthusiasts who take one look at all of this and instantly dismissing it. Yet, the counter point is: have you tried driving it? They somehow managed to make a spectacular driving car. That is undeniable.

 

what doesn't change is that if you took 300kg out of any of those cars they'd all drive much better

 

You would think so, I think you would very likely be able to tell on a race track. I think 300kg you would also feel on the street. But what is the actual weight penalty for the hybrid in the 296 vs say the F8? I think the weight difference between the two cars isn’t nearly as big.

 

If you have ever driven a 765LT in a spirited fashion, you will understand that no amount of electrical wizardry will make you forget the importance of a stiff chassis in a super light package.

 

Indeed, there’s an alternate world where the manufacturers were free to pursue NA and ICE to their logical conclusions. How glorious that world would be?

 

Not in the world of McLaren delivering 700+hp from turbos. And there in lies the problem. Ferrari was never going to fight them on weight. So, they are going to beat the competition with power. As to lightweight, people always cry "less weight" lets compare McLaren and to a lesser extent, Lotus, business to Ferrari. It's not even close. Im not saying one car is better, that depends on you, but the lesson for a business manager is clear.

 

Agreed- when I hear that. Otherwise, easy to forget it’s a turbo.

 

Anybody have any insight on when we may see some road test videos? Surprised to have only seen one clip of the car testing at Fiorano.

 

Stopped by RM Autosport in Monaco today and they had a solid dark blue (my guess is Pozzi) 296 GTS in the showroom. My wife asked, "Hey what's that Ferrari?"

Me:
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"Uh, that's a 296 GTS..."

"Oh, that's what we're getting?" "Yep, it's at the factory now." "It's so nice." She was at Tailor Made in NYC with me for the whole session. We were looking at one there as we built it out. I guess she just forgot or didn't care, but it's reassuring she thinks it's neat now.

 

Life is just one big test Ryan. Seems you’re passing so far.

 

Did you get to have a talk with Raul? He's got some interesting stories and loves to talk about his cars
EDIT: And you're absolutely correct about the color of their 296 GTS, it is indeed Blu Pozzi