3.4 Powertrain questions

Hello

I am currently looking for buying a Mondial T (you will say why am I here!) and I have a thread in the Mondial forum (http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/mondial/531210-another-mondial-t-potential-buyer-thread-3.html)

Been advised to post here since I do have some specific questions regarding the powertrain and there are apparently some gurus!

I am in fact interested by a car that is presenting a need of a full powertrain rebuild. You will say why do I want to buy a car like that and not an already clean example?

To be honest, really thinking that service is not enough to be able to drive confidently these cars (in particular regarding the gearbox).. don't really want to pay twice (important purchase price+big repairs) and think that starting from scratch can be a better option.. and also since I enjoy mechanics!


Ok so the car I have seen has 53kmiles almost no history apart from the last 3 years (belt, clutch and starter and a few strange stuff). The big defaults I have seen are:

-slight rolling noise coming from the gearbox stick: could be the start of a going bearing? Anyway, since the car has some mileage and due to its history, I don't want to risk anything and I will consider the gearbox to be rebuilt

-the car is smoking blue quite a lot when cold: have firstly noticed it on idle during a first check and was thinking of maybe valve steam seals. Was advised that on Ferrari this is usually rings problem and I am thinking also this now since during my second check I have noticed that it is smoking almost always when cold (acceleration, steady, idle, ...) and when parked the more the engine is revving the more it is smoking: again due to the bad history of the vehicle and this symptom, I am thinking the engine is to be rebuilt. The engine is not smoking when hot but is smelling really bad.

However, I would like to get your opinion on this. Do you think it is almost surely a rings problem or can it be something else? The blue smoke has already been noticed 3 years (5kmiles) ago and the owner has done injector cleaning with ultrasound and used a fuel additive. I think he was thinking the engine was soot and that it should clear the issue! The fact it is smoking blue only when cold is making me doubt if it is not something related or so.. The idle is also very poor hot and cold (stalling, unsteady) but the air system has already been tuned recently..
Would think that if it was so easy he would have sorted it!

If it is indeed a rings issue, then I am trying to figure out the total price that I should expect in order to set a target purchase price. Therefore, I have a few specific questions regarding this:
-if we consider a stuck rings issue (looks like to be the more common on these cars), I guess we can expect some liners damage since it is running like that for 5k at least. If you have already seen this on a 3.4, are the piston usually damaged (the price of the pistons is really crazy!)?

-I have seen the liners are nikasil coated which is limiting the possibility of repair. I have read somewhere that the liners were not anymore produced. However I am able to find them on Ricambi so they look to be available. However, I can't choose anywhere the diameter class? Can we still purchase liners from both class? (the same question applies to the pistons in fact where I can't choose the class on Ricambi)

-I have read here that the Elring head gasket were problematic. I can only them on all the sites I have looked. Is this issue sorted? Regarding the top end seals set, I have seen prices ranging between 500$ (superformance.co.uk) to 2000$ (awitalian.com)! What is the right price for this set and is there any fake Ferrari parts?!


Thanks for your help

 

Before getting into a lot of conjecture, would it be possible to perform a leakdown test to help isolate the actual cause of the problem?

 

And to assist responders, please fill out your profile, e.g. location (country) at least. Answers to questions are often based on availability of service, and of course, costs.

 

Hello

Yes sorry. I am from France but more than happy to source parts worldwide if it is cost effective and to work with european serious workshops.

The owner looks not to be willing to do any tests. I have already asked for it before making a first low price offer thinking about valve stem steals. I will ask again otherwise I plan to ask again to drop the price for taking into account the worst scenario.

 

If you actually need to rebuild both the engine and gearbox, you would be better off to pick a different car. Just the parts alone will put you "upside down". I doubt the Mondial has enough appreciation potential to justify such a cash outlay unless you could buy it for next to nothing.

 

Yes I am aware of this, this is why I am trying to quote as much as possible the requested parts since I indeed think I can get a good price.

 

Sorry for the bump.

I have just done a quick cart on Ricambi with all the gearbox bearings in order to see how much it would cost to change all of them, since I understand they all can be worn a little bit since they are all tightened by these famous nuts..

I have came with a total bill of 4700$ which looks very expensive to me according to what I have read here.

I would like to know if almost all of them can be sourced from SKF in order to lower the bill (to which extend?)




Thanks

 

Do the leak down test and a compression test to see where the engine is today. You might have merely stuck piston rings that can be freed with some additive and engine use (as in driving the car).

The transmission could be just having the right fluid. You should find out how the car has been driven for an idea of how the bearings are. The early 348 transmissions had some issues, but you had to abuse them. It might be less expensive to buy a used transmission than to rebuild one, unless you do the work yourself.

 

Hello

I just bought the car today after a big price reduction. Just hoping that piston and liners are OK... more detail in the Mondial thread for now

 

Now that is a leap of faith by a Ferrari fanatic! Congratulations.

 

Also check the prices at Eurospares (UK) Ferrari 348 TB (1993) - Crankcase: Page 001 | Order Online Eurospares. For example, their Nikasil liners (pattern) sets are GBP 1,500 and the delivery to France will probably be next day.

Otherwise, cars with Nikasil liners had problem (excessive wear) during the 90's so you can expect replacement. I recently bought a Jaguar XJR V8 with Nikasil liners and have studied the issue in great detail. Petrol during certain period of the 90's had high sulphur content which "ate" the Nikasil. The sulphur content was reduced to a very small amount from January 2000 after which there was no more problem with Nikasil liners.

Pistons normally don't wear much but you will have to carefully check them, including the piston ring to ring groove side gaps.

 

Hello

Thanks for your reply.

Yes I have seen them (2500GPB and not 1500 from what I see)? However, I don't know what "pattern" means? I also already have written to eurospare in order to have some more details because there are two liners classes (G and R). They me told me that this "pattern" set was "standard dimension" but he didn't told me if it what G or R.. that is why I am a little bit confused regarding this?

 

Sorry, my mistake they are GBP 2,500 (I think I need new glasses). I think the classes of liners you mentioned actually mean the colour codes - G probably means "yellow" (giallo) and R-red (rosso). The difference in diameter of the two is probably in the order of 0.005 to 0.01 mm. As far as I know, such classification of liners and pistons is only done during the factory assembly for perfection in matching. The classed (colour coded) liners or pistons are usually not available as spare parts but you can just get "Std" (or oversized) ones which will be within their whatever manufacturing tolerances.

 

"Pattern" means aftermarket, manufactured by a non-OEM company. It does not always mean lower quality; in some cases could be higher.

 

Hi, just a 'stupid' thought on the Nikasil liners. Would they not be able to re-Nikasil the liners? In the world of snowmobiles, I've heard they do this all the time! Probably expensive, but maybe less than Ferrari's part???

 

Hello

According to the workshop manual, the G class is has a top liner diameter of 85/85.025 against 84.99/85.015 for the R class, so the G class is 0.01 bigger than the R. This would mean that the "standard" size from the pattern set corresponds to the G class?

Has anyone already used non matching liners and pistons classes? Since there is anyway no replacement piston.. (excepted a few ones at 1k each..hugh..)!

Anyway I will have a look with an endoscope as soon as possible (next week end hopefully) to see what is going on inside.

There are some companies that are indeed re doing the nikasil layer (mostly for motorbike here).. don't know if it is as reliable as OEM to be able to do 100k miles on a car engine?

For now, I have remarked that the MAF CO resistance are completely ****ed, with one at 240 ohm and the other one at 0.6!! I think this must explain the poor behavior when the engine is hot (poor hot start, idle, stall, big petrol smell). Will see if this has been done to cope with a dead MAF..

 

Hello

I have taken the compression of the engine and they are quite good.

I have had a look at some posts here and at my348.com regarding the cleaning of the intake control valve. I have then removed the TBs and a valve that was looking similar to the idle control valve in order to clean them.

However, I have realized that the valve that I have taken apart is not the idle control valve and that my set up is quite different to all I have seen here, since my car is a 2.5 without cat.

I would like to know if there is anyone here familiar with this set up in order to advice me what should I look after in order to have a look at this idle issue?

http://rupp3r.free.fr/mondial/intake1.jpg
http://rupp3r.free.fr/mondial/intake2.jpg
Thanks

 

Hello

Ok so I have figured out that on the catless 2.5 Motronic, it looks like that there is no idle control and it is only set by the by pass screws.

I have found that the right screw was almost one turn tighter than the other one which is apparently huge and that may well explain my idle issue.

I have taken benefit of the dismantling wave to take off the cam cover in order to have a look at the valve clearances. I have about 20% of the valves that are slightly out of spec (error<0.05mm).

I have however some nasty stuff on the cams (3 unusual patterns):
This picture shows 2 unusual patterns. There is a degraded surface on the cam ramp, may be explained by some polluted oil. However, this is still smooth on fingers. There is then what looks like a burn mark on the edge of all intake valves near the cam top. This is almost not present on the exhaust ones. I have seen some cams for sell on internet that are in a better shape than mine and they are having these marks on the intake. Is this something nominal for a 3.4 intake camshaft (due to manufacturing)?

http://rupp3r.free.fr/mondial/cam/cam1.jpg


This picture shows on the left cam a mark that looks like oxidation. This is present on several cams but there are also some marks on the camshaft itself. Can't tell if this is standard oxidation or pitting.

http://rupp3r.free.fr/mondial/cam/cam2.jpg


Few others pictures:
http://rupp3r.free.fr/mondial/cam/cam3.jpg
http://rupp3r.free.fr/mondial/cam/cam4.jpg
http://rupp3r.free.fr/mondial/cam/cam5.jpg

What is your thought on these cams?

Thanks