3 pedal vs DCT

If production numbers were similar I think it would the exact same scenario as now. F1 works great, DCT works great, even new autos can shift plenty fast - think Giulia Quadrifoglio 8 spd ZF auto trans, MB AMG, ... To me there is less and less difference between DCT and auto trans. The old school 3 pedal will always have its charm and audience.

 

Not for me I'll stick with my manual. I have driven several brilliant DCT cars and after 5 minutes of wowing at the amazing shifts I just pushed the auto button.
So good and so super smooth it became boring super quick.
Interestingly in 4 years of owning a 360 F1 i never once pushed the auto button. The F1 never got boring.
Can't deny the DCT's performance though.

 

I bought a new M2 with a stick because I like to drive the stick. I drove the DCT. It was very good, but I just like the stick better. On the track, without a doubt, the DCT is better, but on the street and highways, I feel more in control with a MT. But that’s me.
I owned 11 Ferrari. 10 had stick. The only Ferrari I bought with a DCT was a California, which I traded in after 3 months.

 

There is a huge diff between DCT and auto trans, specifically the weight savings and the amount of power and torque that it can handle. The DCT is also faster shifting because the next gear is always pre-selected, or queued up. That is not the case with an auto trans. Now, if the F430 came with a DCT, I would have paid more for it than the premium that full manuals currently have.

 

Let's not forget for the trade off of not needing new clutches, when dct fails you need a whole new trans

The 458 and mclaren 12c seems to have decent risk of needing a complete trans replacement. My friends 911 turbo s just got a new trans under warranty because the clutch was slipping


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

A failing trans is not the same as a slipping clutch. The clutches in the DCT can absolutely be replaced.

 

All things being equal, I would absolutely consider the DCT (current 6spd owner).
I've stated before, I have no objections to paddle shifters. I just didn't feel the f1 or Lambos e-gear was a mature/robust enough design for my own peace of mind. I've driven manual transmissions for the better part of 30 years. In itself, it holds little thrill for me.
So I suppose OP was aimed at ppl like me.

 

Really? That's the first time I've heard that. Mclaren told me the dct is a sealed unit and that the clutch will last a life time. Porsche consider a slipping clutch pack to be a failure and require the replacement of the entire pdk gearbox


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yep, really. I can't speak to McLaren and Porsche has their own DCT, but Ferrari uses the same Getrag unit that BMW uses, and they've been replaced numerous times for their customer for around $3500, about half the cost of replacing the tranny, and usually after 100k miles.

 

Please show me a parts diagram of a Ferrari/Getrag 7DCL750 DCT transmission with the part numbers for the clutches. You can't because it doesn't exist. There are 4 levels of repair kits for the Getrag DCT transmission and none of them include the clutches. The only way to purchase new clutches is to buy a complete new transmission.

 

This is incorrect. What BMW uses a rear mounted DCT Getrag transaxle? None! The BMW uses a front mounted 7DCI600 Getrag DCT tranmission. While the Ferrari uses a rear mounted 7DCL750 Getrag DCT transaxle. The only other cars that share this same transaxle are the Mercedes AMG-GT and SLS AMG. You better ad another zero to the price that you are quoting for replacement of a Ferrari DCT.

 

Motob,

I didn't mean the EXACT same unit, as in the same part numbers. Of course they're going to vary by application, and thus have different part numbers. However, if the clutch pack is changeable in one, then there's no reason for it not to be changeable in another. Maybe not being cost-efficient with respect to servicing customer cars is just not in Ferrari's best interest.
-----
Added note: According to Car&Driver in their long term BMW M3 (2010-ish), they observed some slippage at 40000 miles. BMW replaced the clutch pack at a cost of $3296.

 

I'll take DCT any day for limit driving in particular, 9/10ths+.

Problem is, 99% of even spirited backroad driving for me is at or under 9/10ths. Even if I'd like to push it more, there are too many hazards out there, cyclists and such. Plus, I can work a manual just fine at 9/10ths+ if I need to-- it's just another thing that requires focus. And below 9/10ths, a manual gives me something to do that's much more physically satisfying (to me personally) than pulling paddles.

So while I think a DCT 360 would be fantastic at 9/10ths+, I personally still wouldn't opt for one unless I was going to track it regularly. I'd still pay (a lot) more for a manual.

 

I don't want an older car with a new technology transmission just like I don't want a new car with an vintage style transmission. For the driving experience to be authentic, the whole car has to be "even."

The manual transmission in the 360 is perfectly suited to the car and its characteristics in much the same way as the DCT is perfectly suited to the 488. To switch transmissions between those cars would ruin very charismatic and special driving experiences. The 360 is absolutely not suited to a DCT. It's like putting a single clutch F1 transmission in a 365 GTB/4.

If you want to feel how the cars have changed to fit the transmissions, drive a 360 in manual for an hour and then jump out and get in a manual F430. You will feel a night and day difference about how Ferrari moved the car forward via the new engine architecture and characteristics to make a car that's almost exclusively suited to the F1 transmission. They went the rest of the way with the 458 where there's no practical way to run it as a manual.

 

Porsche makes the GT3 with a manual and it hasn’t gotten any complaints. The only reason Ferrari doesn’t make both is it’s cheaper to stick with one and go with what 80% of people would order, the automatic.

My 911’s PDK is flawless, but really only engaging on the track. It makes the daily driving experience even more boring than it already is, and even manages to take some of the fun out of driving twisty mountain roads. That’s why I had to get manual 360 and a modern smooth boring DCT wouldn’t even tempt me for a second.

 

There's more to it than that. Lamborghini has a lot of shared technology with Porsche per their parent companies and the cross platform mandate. Why don't they also offer a manual? Porsche's new manuals are so bizzarre. They match revs for you on downshift so there's no more heel and toe? That's a baby step away from a single clutch paddle gearbox.

That said, you have a point with Porsche's offering a manual gearbox because they have made a new car with a manual that has an authentic experience. I have driven the 911R and the manual is very nice in that car. I don't know if it's a new transmission or not but it felt to me just like the 6 speed box from the 997 GT3RS cars.

 

I've driven full manuals all my life up until I bought my first new car in 2008 (BMW M3 with the DCT). By the time I got my driver's license at the age of 16, manual shifting was already second nature... no focus needed. That said, once I owned the DCT, I never missed the full manual. It's all pros and no cons (except for the initial cost). I plan to sell my F430 to get into a 458 some day, if for nothing else but the transmission

 

Interesting points. So are you saying the manual is more suited to a 360 than a 430? Asking because I've never had the opportunity to drive a manual 430.

 

I agree with the OP. DCT would have been the more popular. New car buyers of high end cars are simply favoring the DCT. Even now if the 360 came out in a Manual or a DCT, the breakdown would be like the 430, 90% DCT maybe.. maybe 5% manual. Personally I'm surprised that the California only had less than 5 cars made with a manual transmission. I *thought* that number would be higher but they're not. And the worst part of it, if those Cali's come to the open market the collectors will buy them and jack up prices because *rare*.

Personally I prefer the 3-pedal, but the days of the manual transmission being popular are over.

 

Hmm I don’t know if Porsche has a manual that can handle the torque that a Lambo puts out since they don’t offer a manual in the Turbo/Turbo S... plus I’m sure there’s a bit of re-work moving a trans from a rear engine to a mid engine car. Then even if you had a trans ready to go, there are lots of other parts that have to be changed, complicating the whole assembly line.

I’m with you on the rev match, seems really strange... I wouldn’t want it, because I know I’d use it rather than just turn it off and make myself do the work. On my buddy’s manual Z06 the paddles to the rev matching so you don’t turn it on or off you just pull the paddle if you want it to match. The Z06 is great in manual, enough power/torque that you don’t have to work overly hard to keep it in the powerband, but it keeps things interesting in a car that can’t really be exercised even a little bit on public roads. But they make so many Corvettes that it’s worth offering two transmissions, but it doesn’t really work so well on low volume cars.

 

But that's my point. These new mid engined sports cars are designed and engineered not to have manual transmissions. It has to do with the architecture, the software and sensors and all the way to the hardware in the flywheels and cranks. Correct performance is only achieved with the corresponding DCT it was designed for. There's too much compromise to make a really good manual with the technology that the best cars from manufacturers like Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, and M-B today.

Funny enough, the one modern day sports car that is truly suited to the manual gearbox is one that never got it: The Alfa Romeo 4C.

 

You’re right, but they could have designed and engineered similar performance with a manual like the SRT Viper. It’s not simply a matter of bolting the other transmission on though, like you say there is a lot of engineering involved in making the car and transmission work together. In low volume cars there just isn’t a profit justification for doing it twice.