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3 year cam belt service - such a waste

Discussion in '360/430' started by cgfen, Apr 15, 2019.

  1. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    It was no secret what was called for when the cars are purchased. Its quite simple really, buy the car knowing and willing to follow through on whats needed to keep it road worthy like any responsible owner or say it isn't worth it and buy something else.

    Everything else is just childish behavior.
     
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  2. Sled Driver

    Sled Driver Formula Junior
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    May 13, 2010
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    Emery
    You FEEL you shouldn’t have to replace the belts until you get + 90% of their life.

    Reality is, that’s impossible to predict due to variations in manufacturing & use. It’s not just a single part, but the entire assembly that is subjected to heat & constant tension.

    ETOPS aircraft have numerous SERVICEABLE parts replaced based on flight hours or cycles. Way above & beyond what standard aircraft are subjected to. This is to guarantee reliability over water. It’s extremely conservative & expensive, but the consequence of failure far out ways this.

    Ferrari has years of data from its dealer network. The trend they saw showed them 3 years would GUARANTEE no SYSTEM failure (not just the belts).


    It is extremely ignorant to say “They looked as good as new”.

    The only way to PROVE your point would be to test the belt to destruction using the manufacture specs of a new belt.


    To quote Dirty Harry “You feel lucky punk?”
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall

    Exactly.

    Examination with the Mk 1 Eyeball and declaring them to be perfect, especially when one has no concept of the failure mode is laughably ignorant.
     
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  4. 67bmer

    67bmer Formula Junior
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    Oct 28, 2015
    386
    MD
    is there an archive of ALL the technical bulletins published on the 360?
     
  5. andytr

    andytr Rookie

    Dec 13, 2016
    23
    Leeds
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    Andy Murray
    Jeez, how much does a belt service cost in the US?? I have my belts done every 3 years, at my indie it costs about £1500 ($2k) and the cost of a rebuild is £10-15k...aren't the economics on this fairly simple? Or are most of the people here complaining about the belt change interval just cheapskates who can't afford to service the car? I'm confused! Oh and who the f' doesn't redline a 360??? I do 3k miles a year, maybe 15-20% of that is at 8500 rpm! THE NOISE!!!!!! Peace man!
     
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  6. Drestless

    Drestless Formula 3

    Oct 1, 2014
    1,235
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    Jam
    SIMPLE. This one of the topic that gets Ferrari owners triggered from both camps.

    1. Belt Change Interval
    2. F1 vs gated
    3. Stock or Modded

    Sure hope nobody will say the belt interval is different from F1 and gated. To the folks that needs to loosen up, of course I'm joking. ;)

    But if that happens, this will be the longest discussion. :D
     
  7. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
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    Aug 25, 2005
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    John Zornes
    About the same cost then. We are entering the phase where the cream really separates. People who stretch to get the car are looking for the cheapest way and they will cut corners because 'it works on my accord'. Don't believe me, look at the trajectory of threads from 5 years ago vs today. Soon after that you will see very inexpensive cars that look ok but will cost a mountain to bring back so they slowly turn into junk AND a few very well cared for cars that will command high prices. You saw it in the 308/318/328 and you will see it here.
     
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  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    Bingo.
     
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  9. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    No archive any more. Ferrari's lawyers shut them all down.
     
  10. Drestless

    Drestless Formula 3

    Oct 1, 2014
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    Jam
    These “cream” 308/318/328 that are commanding high prices have seen the garage light more than the sunlight. Been in the shop for constant belt changes more than the belts ever spinned :confused:

    Constant belt maintenance wasn’t the only factor to their trajectory in price. The minimal miles played a way bigger role.

    Unfortunately, high mile samples will never be “creams” in the Ferrari world no matter how much their cared for.

    Nothing wrong with treating our cars as an investment and making them “creamier” by letting them sit in the garage and serviced in the shop more than being driven.

    In the contrary, nothing wrong with treating them as cars and not as an investment. Driving them more and not consistently going to the shop for every little thing.

    Our cars, our individual choices. No right or wrong answer IMHO. :cool:
     
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  11. Zed82

    Zed82 Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2017
    305
    Gothenburg
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    Zlatan
    There sure are better ways of investing your money then to baby a regular 360 or F430 waiting for the prices to go up. :D
     
  12. dang2407

    dang2407 Karting

    Apr 29, 2017
    146
    Crawley, UK
    So what's the answer, how many have failed and at what interval?
     
  13. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3

    Sep 1, 2013
    1,231
    Western Mass
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    Raimondo
    Yes, there is definitely a socioeconomic downward trend of 360 owners (as I’m sure for happens to most f cars) as the car is aging.

    Cost of repairs/maintenance/parts remains those of a 150k+ (200+ if price adjusted) car but owners don’t have the disposable income to manage it unless they find a way to cut corners or diy.

    Just look at the active threads in this section. Should I change my oil, belts, and lots of diy questions.

    Not necessarily cheapskate but perhaps trying to be more frugal with limited resources.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  14. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3

    Sep 1, 2013
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    Raimondo


    I fear we will never get an actual answer to this question because:

    - although many 360’s were made they are actually relatively uncommon, and I would say the majority are pampered and well maintained so actual numbers of failures would be low.

    - just anecdotal accounts of failures. Even someone like Brian Crall can’t truly elucidate trends especially because failure is probably not common.

    - no public database.

    - lack of response to failures is not synonymous with nonexistent failure. I bet if mine failed and I took a 30k hit on engine I may leave the marquee, or at least not wish to publicly admit to it.


    I don’t think you will ever get your answer, just a lot of crickets or opinions. It boils down to probability.

    I believe there is a brief period after fresh belt change when the likelihood of failure actually spikes. Due to human error and new part failure.

    Then once past this initial spike and new belts/bearings passed in situ testing, probability is low, and slowly creeps up with time and mileage.

    For me I can speculate about the 3 year thing as conspiracy of ferrari looking for revenue. Think about this

    I bet this equation of ferrari income from majors is close to equivalent .

    (Total 355 produced x cost of major)/5 = (total 360 produced x cost of major)/3



    I personally rely on my internal agita scale.

    Immediately after major - moderate agita

    1-3 years after -low agita

    Year 4 - moderate agita

    Year 5- high agita because I’m lazy, busy and do my own - barely drive it until I get to belts. (Have parts, car on lift maybe next week).


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall

    Laughably absurd.

    When the vast majority are buying Dayco branded belts and either Capristo or Hill bearings, gaskets manufactured by 3rd parties and OE branded seals and filters bought from generic commercial suppliers please explain how Ferrari benefits from that?
     
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  16. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3

    Sep 1, 2013
    1,231
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    Raimondo
    Only humorous if labor and inspection uncovering other needed repairs is a comedy.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    Ferrari gets not one single labor dollar. How do other needed repairs (oh horror...we found something wrong with the car and helped the owner avoid a breakdown or worse) change where the money goes?
     
  18. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3

    Sep 1, 2013
    1,231
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    Raimondo
    It’s actually great I agree. Helps customer and shop. So what’s so funny? I don’t get it.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  19. dang2407

    dang2407 Karting

    Apr 29, 2017
    146
    Crawley, UK
    The service interval benefit was for when they were current. Btw you're a bit of an ****** to pour scorn on someone else's post like that
     
  20. E60 M5

    E60 M5 Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Jan 2, 2006
    6,299
    Wash DC area
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    Robert
    Nope, he's just being realistic and has far too many years working on these cars. By the way, consider this a warning for trying to circumvent the language filter and personal attack on another member.
     
  21. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 Rookie
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    Jul 8, 2016
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    Matt
    I think there's another point being made here. Even if the "company" of Ferrari doesn't make any money on labor, it doesn't change the facts that dealers/specialty indy shops charge a premium for labor, just like Ferrari charges a premium for parts. All dealers are the same as far as I'm concerned, I've been on too many car forums where the "dealer" will want to charge thousands for a relatively easy job that can be easily done by someone with mechanical knowledge.

    Let's be honest here, Ferrari techs charge $150-$200+/ hour for labor, when a lot of the jobs, save the SDx stuff, could honestly be done by an ASE certified Midas tech with a service manual. Come on, a few grand for coils and plugs? I had a much harder time doing those on my 2005 Silverado than I did on my 360 (well,not coils, plugs/wires/cap/rotor but you get the point). Upwards of $2000 for annual fluid and filters? $3500 for a brake/rotor job?!?! Where is the Ferrari tech working for $90/hour and using Bosch parts for the passion of it? Maybe @voicey but he's a bit far for me, I don't know what he charges for labor, but I know his love for the cars and the passion he has to help people...and when he posts, it's always helpful. He's actually answered my private messages when I've had concerns that the board, as a whole,couldn't really answer.

    If the dealers "find" something they can charge for, they are going to charge for it. It's not just Ferrari the company but the entire Ferrari "pseudo-scam" as a whole. I, myself, follow the service intervals with maybe a tolerance of a few months or so, but that doesn't mean I am going to take it in the shorts just because the tech at the dealer wants to replace my damn coolant reservoir cap, for $200 when I have a drawer full of them in my garage that I paid $13 apiece for literally the EXACT same part from Carrier, I'm going to just bend over and let them do it.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, car values. If I lose a value of $10k in value by saving $20k in service, I'm still on top, but I won't because I didn't want a concourse car that I couldn't drive. My car is better maintained than most of the cars that people post PPI's on and if I ever sell it, someone will be getting a driveable cherry..

    People need to stop taking this crap so damn personal. If someone wants to blow up their engine, good for them. Then someone can by the car for $30k, put $10-15k into, enjoy it or sell it for $55-60k. All good, someone with a passion will actually be able to enjoy the car.
     
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  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall


    Would you mind citing for me a single example where I have defended any of the prices you have quoted?

    As for those prices I can give you a very long list of high quality Ferrari mechanics and shops that do not charge those prices. That leaves me with the conclusion you are either lying, uninformed or exaggerating. In any of the three cases it has just turned your entire post to garbage drivel.
     
  23. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 Rookie
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    Well I guess the majority of the posts here are "garbage drivel" as there are several examples on this board. Plus, you think in my 3 years of ownership I haven't gotten priced quotes for work? I haven't spent hours researching parts prices?

    Brian, you are a highly respected Ferrari mechanic, who I was under the impression was here to help fellow Ferrari fans, and I have done my best to respect your point of view, but when mine and others' personal experiences are automatically discounted as "BS" or "garbage" or "ignorant", then an explanation is requested to be met by nothing but crickets or more condescension, or PM's with assumed simple questions that could not be answered by the masses on the boards but then directed towards a mechanic (which is a request floated often here) are ignored, the value of information seems to decrease.
     
  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Brian Crall
    They are ignorant when you say those are the best prices you can get for quality work. That is a lie.

    You want to lie to make a point, knock yourself out but please spare me the riotous indignation when I call you on it.
     
  25. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 Rookie
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    #100 RedNeck, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
    Did I say those were the best prices? I said those were common and quoted prices, provided by my experiences and the experiences of others on the boards, in fact I believe we had a similar conversation that was never clarified on a recent thread where someone paid $3700 for a brake job. My post , based on my experience was met with a response of "What BS". I asked for clarification of my inaccuracies. Still waiting.

    Righteous indignation?

    Alanis was ahead of her time...
     

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