308/328 factory engine test procedures | FerrariChat

308/328 factory engine test procedures

Discussion in '308/328' started by Ferraripilot, Oct 6, 2023.

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  1. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    John!
    A mechanic in Italy had told me this week the factory power testing and break in procedure on the dyno (apparently they all used Schenk dynos then and made calculation based on bmep) was done with no accessories (alternator etc), and the water pump not being driven in the case of the 308/328. The engine had to make a minimum output to be approved. This is apparently part of the reason why the power output is quoted so high.

    The only experiment I’ve done to try and know the parasitic loss from the driven accessories is with an old Alfa 4 cylinder engine. We tested the engine with the fan attached to the water pump, then with the fan removed and consistently picked up 5-6hp at the wheels. I’ve been told driving a water pump and alternator alone will suck up 10hp. Race engines have had alternators driven off gearboxes for years of course.

    @Rifledriver I know you’ve been to the factory a number of occasions, is this accurate?
     
  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    False. Engines were tested ready to install. After dyno run sent straight to assembly line in the same building.
    Engine built Monday, tested Tuesday, installed Wednesday.
     
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  3. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    So what is the back story on the "old" method to rate them on the dyno? I have been told that Ferrari was using an industry wide method (for lack of a better word) back in the day that would give a sort of inflated output rating that didn't actually translate to real a world environment. Everyone had to stop doing it, not just Ferrari.
    For example, the 2vi engines are really more on the 180+ hp side rather than the published 205.
     
  4. JCR

    JCR F1 World Champ
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    Ferrari probably used "gross" vs "net". SAE changed that for American manufacturers in 1972.
    Horsepower - Wikipedia
     
  5. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oh, so it wasn't that they were doing anything different, just publishing the higher of two ratings.
     
  6. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

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    Prior to 1972 in the USA, manufacturers gave gross HP ratings - engine on the dyno with open headers and not running any accessories - water pump, alternator, etc.

    Since then manufacturers publish net HP ratings - engine on dyno operating as it would in the car.

    Of course there is also the difference between flywheel HP and rear wheel HP. So if you take a 300 HP car to a dyno it's probably going to show around 260 HP at the rear wheels. Engines are never rated according to rear wheel HP.
     
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  7. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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  8. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Actually pretty easy to date here in Europe: the last carbed cars, starting at the beginning of 1980, had inside their Owner's Manual a small adhesive sticker glued above the "255hp" power figure, saying "230".
    The German TÜV, when it tested the car in the seventies, found figures of 226 to 229 DIN.
    The original test for the "Vetroresina" by the french magazine Sport-Auto used only once "255", then always "230".

    I have an interview in a 1985 special issue of the french magazine "Auto-Hebdo" of Ferrari's engine department's head at the time, in which he says that the accepted tolerance after the bench test is 3%: any engine that does not come within 3% of the rated power output is sent back to the workshops; engines that give more than the rated power output are accepted "as is".

    Rgds
     
  9. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    So I guess we are back to a 2Vi at about 180 net hp
     
  10. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Will check; pretty sure Dirk-Michael Konradt's book has some figures for the U.S 2 valve injected cars....

    Rgds
     
  11. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    John!
    This makes the most sense to me. Publish HP ratings based on the absolute maximum it can produce with no accessories, but test for production purposes with all accessories in place ready to drop in the chassis.


    As for the 2vi engines, they dyno at the wheels (dynojet) in the mid to 165-170bhp range, placing this engine closer to the advertised rating.
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    In most cases the Ferrari claimed HP for production cars has always been a work of fiction. I have the original copy of a factory dyno sheet of a 360. It is supposed to be a confidential factory internal document. It made 360 hp. Factory claim was 400.
    The same was not true when it came to comp cars or the Supercars. Those are true.
    The claimed weight was also often laughable as well. They actually said the 365BB was 2700 lbs.
     
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  13. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    That's what Dirk-Michael Konradt's book says, just checked this morning.
    After 1980, when Ferrari started to state power in DIN figures, the actual power was closer to advertised rating
    As for the two-valve injected car, advertised rating for the "euro" car was 214, and the german TÜV actually found 209.
    As for the US variant, the book simply says: "actual power was close to 200".

    Rgds
     
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  14. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    Very interesting. How does German TUV check? Do they just acquire a car, pull the engine, and rig it to a dyno???
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Thats how they tested silicone brake fluid. In a BMW in the mountains. They disallowed its use by the way. Too compressible when hot.
     

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