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308 AC Replacement Parts???

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Sean F., Sep 26, 2004.

  1. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
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    Sean F
    I got my compressor out today and I was either going to replace it or replace the seal if the shaft is OK. I was also going to convert to R134a since that seems to be the consensus choice discussed at great length here.

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26234

    However, I'm not sure if I need to replace those 90deg fittings or not?

    There are 90 deg. fittings on the AC lines as they enter/exit the compressor. Am I supposed to replace these to convert to R134? They have small schrader valves with caps on them on the ends of them (the service ports).

    If this is what should be replaced, how do I get them off? I cannot seem to get them disconnected from the AC lines. They losen, then tighten up as I'm taking them off and won't budge. Any suggestions?

    Thanks

    Sean
     
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  3. don_xvi

    don_xvi F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
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    You'll install fittings that screw onto the conventional Schrader valves with the R134a type connectors, so there's no need to worry about doing anything to get the old fittings off.
     
  4. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

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  5. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
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    A TIP:
    Be sure to remove the valve cores from the R12 schrader valve fittings before screwing the R134a adapter fittings onto them.

    While some of the adapter fittings are set up to permanantly depress the R12 valve cores when screwed on, the track record of them managing to bend/damaging the R12 valve cores is pretty high!

    Also, the R12 cores will restrict refrigerant flow when servicing the system.
     
  6. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
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    thanks Verell. I was thinking I should take them out since they are old.

    I really appreciate you posting all this AC info. here. And so will my wife b/c now the car will be cooler when we take it out.

    By the way, my Dryer that I removed says "Hansa" on it. No part number. It's about 2-1/2"DIA and ~ 7" tall with the inlet ~3/4 of the way up one side and the outlet on top exactly opposite the inlet side.

    The only reference I've found so far on the net is a Infinity M30 and BMW525i. The infinity dryer looks nothing like mine and I've not found a site to reference the BMW part yet to see if it matches.

    I think I'll just go to a local AC store and see if I can match it.
     
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  8. lou staller

    lou staller Formula Junior

    Dec 21, 2002
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    Sean, You may want to try TRutlands. I searched all over for a replacement dryer and couldn't come up with one. So a quick call to TRutlands and found what I was looking for. They have new and rebuilt ones. I chose the rebuilt for about $80.00. It's easier then running around town. Good luck.
     
  9. carlrose

    carlrose Formula Junior

    Nov 25, 2003
    295
    Hi Mr. Fischbach,

    Authored that tech article on 328 AC compressor & AC work. Having said that, would no longer reccomend replacing just crank seal. It's inexpensive, but the work required isn't worth the differential. Not certain if 1977 cars use the same York, but replacement available with warranty rebuilt at NAPA for about $190. After replacing crank seal, my compressor leaked from same seal in 6 months. I went the NAPA route.

    Regarding dryer unit, you may be able to match up a Parker unit. Go to NAPA (or truck supply, strange as it seems) and ask to look over picture catalog. The 328 part crosses to an International truck...and retails for about $60.

    Best of luck,

    Carl
     
  10. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
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    Carl,

    More discussion here.

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32326

    Thanks, that is a great article. I added a few items to it (hope you don't mind?). The difference I see in the Parker drier is that it has some kind of "switch" on it by my Hansa has none. What does this switch do on the 328? The early 308's have none. It's worth a stop at Steve Carr's shop. He seemed to have a lot of knowledge about the AC set up on early 308's. He even had a Sanden rotary compressor with a mounting bracket that will convert the 308 to a more efficient system over the York system. Also, I can covert to R134 and not lose much with the more efficient compressor. Best of all the NEW Sanden was only $269 and the bracket $49. He also noted that I should be able to make some short extensions to attach my existing lines to the new compressor. Terry Springer put a Sanden on his '77GTB and went as far as to make new lines, put in a new drier and x-valve, and larger fans and reported a HUGE increase in cooling on his 308. Said it was even comfortable in Atlanta on a 90°+ day

    I figure it's worth a stop over on my way home from work to see what he's got. If I decide against it all I've lost is a little time. Besides, he thought he could match the dryer and more than likely can fix my compressor or provide a replacement at the same cost or better than NAPA. His shop is an AC shop so I'm betting he'll have a lot more knowledge than the guys at the NAPA counter. I want to avoid taking out the coolant lines because it looks to me like they would be a BEAR to replace. Not to mention the cost of having to replace them. I may be able to make a short extension off the in/out lines to make the Sanden work. As I noted on another thread, I'll be sure and post all relevant info. and also on the f-talk.
     
  11. ria

    ria Formula Junior

    Nov 2, 2003
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    phill
    verell can you tell me to put refrigerant back do i put it from the cuction side ??
     
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  13. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
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    An update here.

    I'm going to try and convert to an Sanden rotary system which is more effecient, will work with the R134 better and robs less power.

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=134441173#post134441173

    Also, Steve said I need PAG but I recall Verell said POE oil would work (buy my memory could be wrong)


    EDIT - Upon further Review Verell said POE is for systems which have R12 present but I plan on converting to R134 and flushing the system to clean everything out. I bought some system flush and can use it, and an air compressor to clean the system (if I replace the expansion valve so I can get everything clean - see my other post - it only make sense for me to replace the valve since I'm converting to Sanden rotary system).

    Didn't some cars come with a Sanden system? Was it a rotary or similar to the York piston style?

    Also, my compressor is an ASPERA - which looks a lot like the York. I'm guessing it was made under license in Italy b/c that's where the manufacture is labeled as being.
     
  14. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
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    True
     
  15. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
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    Maybe this is why people have so many problems with it. Maybe the manu. was just not up to the task of making these things.

    Did the later cars have the same kind of rotary or were they piston style? If they were the same, shouldn't I be able to find a bracket to mount it on that would work on my car instead of having to go with this adapter system?

    Also, I was plaing on having a shop do a complete 60-minute vacuum to remove all moister per your earlier recomendations and then also have them charge the system.
     
  16. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
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    While that may help me save a few dollars, I think in the end I'd be happier just with a new system. By the time I found a used SANYO, had it rebuilt or checked out as OK (only to have it leak later) I'd probably spend almost as much as I did on the Sanden (list was $395 and I paid $269). Used AC systems have a tendancy to crap out or leak as they get older.
     
  17. carlrose

    carlrose Formula Junior

    Nov 25, 2003
    295
    Hi again Mr. Fishbach,

    The US-edition 328s all were suplied with the "York-style" compressor. European cars were equipped with an SD-507 (and appropriate brackets) if memory serves. The small switch on the top of the Parker drier for the 328 is a "low-pressure" switch; this prevents the compressor from running (and burning up) when the refrigerant charge falls below a preset level.

    As Verell noted, there are a few *very minor* differences between the factory compressor and the York replacement (I didn't realize factory was an Aspera). I found the seals fit perfectly, but wouldn't reccomend that route. Sprayed the NAPA York unit with Krylon "dull aluminum" almost a perfect match for OEM. Note that if you replace the original Aspera the lower mounting bolts will require replacement with 3/8x16 TPI (OEM has metric thread bolts). Once installed virtually impossible to detect, and doesn't require line modification.

    In answer to a previous question, one recharges AC system from the suction side. But make sure you know what you're doing before you embark on AC work.

    Best,

    Carl
     
  18. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
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    Thanks again Carl. I don't know if you clicked the link above or not, but I posed a lot of info about converting to a Sanden rotary in that thread.

    The shop I bought my parts from also recommented I put in a low pressure cut off switch on my car. It can be easily fit to the drier I purchased (or just about any drier that does not have one). Of course my next question is how to wire it up. I guessing Steve Carr (the shop I bought my stuff from) could show me how to wire it up. I suppose this may be a good idea to install this in my car?

    Should I go ahead and flush the system myself? I purchased some AC flush and was going to flush it out and put in R134 PAG oil. However, to do this I'll have to remove the exp. valve and flush the whole system.

    Verell says I can use the POE oil with systems that have R12 present, but are being converted to R134. I can avoid the flush, use the POE I previously purchased (which means I'd have to drain the new compressor and fill it again with POE).

    It seems to me the logical choice, since I'm going this far, would be too flush the whole system, put in a new expansion valve, use the PAG R134 Oil (which the compressor already has in it) and basically make a whole new system for myself.

    When it's all said and done this will probably cost me close to $600 for parts and a shop to vacuum and fill the system.

    The alternative is to buy a York for $229+tax, convert to R134 with Verrell method (vacuum and POE Oil in system), put my existing clutch on the new York and have a shop vacuum/fill the system with R134. Probably will cost close to $400.

    On one hand I want and AC system that will be trouble free and work well. On the other, I want to maintain some originality in my car. But then, it's only a 308. It's not like their are councours guys buying these things up and only wanting originallity. The number of mods made by people on this forum alone tells me a lot of them have had better ignitions put on them, differnt bumpers, mirrors, seat covers, paint.. you name it.
     
  19. Morrie

    Morrie Karting

    Nov 4, 2003
    207
    Sarasota/Asheville
    Sean,

    Thanks for all the good info in that thread. I'm getting basically the same stuff from Steve Carr to do mine. I think your experience will be very helpful when I have the system installed.
     
  20. ria

    ria Formula Junior

    Nov 2, 2003
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    phill
    i have a question, can one pull vacuum from discharge side or only from suction side ( low side ).
     
  21. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
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    You pull vacuum from both sides b/c the exp. valve will be closed when the system is off which means the high and low side will be isolated from each other.

    Also, I updated the other thread..

    The AC system is up and running.

    Pulled 30" for about 10-minutes, turned the vacuum off and it held for 10-minutes longer.

    Pulled a vacuum for ~ 45 minutes to remove the moisture in the system. Charged with ~2 12oz cans of R134a. System ran at 44-deg while I was parked and cooled the car nicely. The real test will obviously be when it's 95 outside and I've got it on, but it sure cooled teh car off nicely on the way home.

    Sure glad this is over and it works. Not to bad really. Lots of on/off with the compressor to make it fit and get everything lined up. Ended up with a custom long 90 on the LP side so that both lines are on the top side and away from the gas tank where they used to rub.

    I'll borrow a camera and post some pics of the set up.
     
  22. robertgarven

    robertgarven F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Feb 24, 2002
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    I hate to come in at this late stage but I think switching to 134 is wrong for several reasons
    1 F cars were never that good at cooling and 134 is less efficient than r12
    2. You may someday want to consider keeping your car as original as possible is a good thing and switching it over is hard to reverse
    3. r12 is still around and not that expensive
    4. it runs at a lower pressure and cools better
    5. if you switch you really need to switch the hoses too

    I took a Hvac class at the local college and got an A+ my gt4 is 30 years old and has held its charge for almost 3 years with weekly usage.

    Just my 2 cents my car blows 35 degrees and still is only good at about 75 degrees outside cause of several factors, including small fan motor, large greenhouse. placement of air outlets.

    I say roll down the window and have a good time!

    I am not an expert but have some experience here
     
  23. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
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    1 - This is why I swiched to a rotary 7-stage compressor. It is more effecient than the old piston York helping negate the R134 efficiency issue.
    2 - Putting a more effecient AC system on my car that WORKS is not going to lower the Value. It's a V-8 Ferrari, not a 12. There are plenty of concours type vehicles out there for the collectors. And switching it back would not be that expensive (but would be a major PITA). I still have all the old parts.
    3 - R12 is 10x the cost of R134.
    4 - R134 does indeed run at a higher pressure which is why I decided to switch to a different compressor.
    5 - This has been discussed at lenght on this board and I discussed with with the guy I bought my parts from, and other. If you get the system cleaned/flushed out, it's not an issue. Also, Verrell has done several conversions (Search the board) using POE oil, which will work with R134 systems where R12 is present.

    I wouldn't have made this switch without thinking about it. The conversion to R134 has be disected to death on this board. It's not a bad idea. The cooling system on these cars is not really adequate no matter what refrigerant you use. The only person I know who made theres better also switched to a Sanden Rotary, but also put in a larger CFM fan and made some other changes. He lived in Atlanta and had good AC (with R134) on 95+ days.
     
  24. Morrie

    Morrie Karting

    Nov 4, 2003
    207
    Sarasota/Asheville

    Sean,

    I'm thankful to you for the information you have posted during this project. I expect it to be very helpful when I assemble my system which should be early next week. Steve will ship the parts tomorrow.

    Today he suggested that the cooling fans be rewired so that both always run when the air is turned on. With the air off, the first fan would revert to control by engine coolant temperature. I suspect it would make the air conditioning work a lot better, but I'm not sure how it would affect engine temperature. I may try it at least for a while.

    I also intend to swap out the blowers for ones with more capacity. Someone on this board mentioned that one car had the directional louvres from the lower outlet removed. I don't know how this would look, but it may be worth considering.

    I have a friend who has a carbureted 308 GTB with the rotary modification, He says he and his wife are comfortable in the car even on a hot Florida day.

    Morrie
     
  25. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
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    Sean,
    Where can I get brackets to mount a Sanden compressor in the place of a York compressor on my Mondial? (The compressor and mounts are identical to the ones in my 308).

    Where did you get the Sanden compressor and can you post info? (Or did I miss that in the thread?)

    Birdman
     
  26. Morrie

    Morrie Karting

    Nov 4, 2003
    207
    Sarasota/Asheville

    Carr Auto Parts in Houston. Sean put me in touch with Steve Carr, who put together the system that is now in my 308.

    He has the compressors and brackets. I think the bracket is about $50 give or take. The whole kit, which included some special fittings that Steve made based on what they put into Sean's car, ran about $400.

    So far my rotary compressor has not perfomed as well as those I have seen in other cars. The tech put in 134 instead of R12, as I had instructed. I don't know if this is the primary problem. The thermostat isn't working and I don't know where to look for it. I suspect it is in the console switch but I haven't had time to look.

    It also creates a noticable drain on power, which is not considered characteristic of the rotary compressors.

    I know they can be made to work because I have driven two cars with them working very well.
     
  27. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
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    Glad to hear you got the system in but unfortunate that it is not working corectly. I got 42-deg air when driving on a 90-deg day in Houston. So much cold air that my wife made me turn it off on the way to a football game back in September.

    Was the old system flushed before the R134 was put in? If not, that may cause a problem. Also, did the tech check for leaks by pulling a vacuum for a few minutes then shutting it off to see if it held? Then, was the system vacuumed for ~45-60 minutes to remove ALL moisture? Finally, how many cans of 134 went in? Steve used 2 in my install. It still seems to run great and not use much power at all.

    Birdman, send me a PM if you need some details on installing the system. Mine works great so far with no problems. Steve has all the info. on making the install and knows what parts you'll need. He was very helpful to me and gave me good prices on the parts. Be sure if you call him tell him Sean and Morrie gave you the info.

    Note that if you have the ability to cut and shape metal and weld, you can make your own for ~$10 in parts and actually make a more custom bracket that would fit better than what we used.

    Again, send me a PM and we can exchange phone #'s and talk on the phone.

    Sean F

    here is the thread on the conversion, note that the number for Steve's shop from Alan is a shop phone that he doesn't answer often. Call this one 713-690-1800

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32326&page=2&pp=20&highlight=Carr
     
  28. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    Convert to a rotary style compressor. I did a few years ago and it made a world of difference on my 78 308. I use R12 though so YMMV with 134. It was a big job but worth it. Plus it doesn't rob near as much power like the stock unit.
     

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