308 belt change turning into huge job ?

Recently purchased 308 from 1978 with no proof of belt change history (my first Ferrari ever). So I take it apart to change them. While I'm in there I grab the timing belt drive pulleys, and to my dismay one is QUITE loose. The cover that holds the two shafts for the two pulleys doesn't come off since 6 (?) studs seem to connect through the lower crank case. I had such high hopes to have it on the road this week, but expectations can be frustratingly squashed when you find this type of added work. My heart sank, and I'm thinking the whole darn engine has to come out and apart.

Luckily I found a thread to make a blind bearing extractor at http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39746 (Thanks Harta 320).
Put the tool together in an hour, got the bearings out in no time, but the shaft is REALLY WICKED LOOSE. There is apparently an inner bearing, and it's hard to judge how loose the shaft should be with only the rear bearing holding on.... but this seems really loose to me.

Can anyone tell me if it is possible to replace the INNER drive bearing without complete engine removal and disassembly ?
What if the six studs were extracted from the bottom of the front drive pulley cover, could it then be removed ?
(Am I beginning to smell weeks of hard labor on a car I don't really know much about yet, and that I have not really driven 150 miles yet ?)
Thanks,
H

 

Keep searching, there are threads on doing this repair "in car".
Bill

 

IIRC, there is one problem with getting that whole front cover off. The oil pump pickup bolts to it. I have heard that if you take off the oil pan, you can snake a tool up there and remove the two bolts. Personally, I don't see how you'd ever be able to get the pickup back on. Anybody done it successfully? -Steve

 

I have done it twice. It is easy. Dont rush however and if it takes 6 weeks to get the car back on the road that is better than a blown engine! I hope the engine is at TDC and the cams are off or locked and marked. I also marked the timing gears as the gears are not straight cut and rotate a bit when everything goes back together. The back bearings rarely fail but I would replace all while you are there. A few of these pics are courtesy of Ric R.
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Perhaps this thread is the reason that I haven't called the local guy back who has a 308 for sale. I asked him if the belts and bearings had been changed,.........nothing confirmed. What about the gas hoses? And what about the cost of replacing the broken windshield?

Dreams of cruising in a Ferrari can get mired down with frustrating repairs brought on by years of neglect by previous owners. If I'm going to have to do tons of frustrating work on the car and buy expensive parts,.....why not knock about 7 or 8 grand off the price?

Aren't hobbies supposed to be enjoyable and not sources of great frustration?

 

Two gold stars, Mr. Garven! I didn't think you could do it! -Steve

 

Wow, Mr. Garven: Thanks so much ! This information saved me from depression and a nervous breakdown. Great pictures. Any fear of owning this great car is steadily going away with all the fantastic advice and experience that all of you can offer here.
I am excited about handling this challenge now.

I am an amateur mechanic, but not afraid of diving into this. One piece at a time.

Mr.Garven: Yes, cams are out, crank at TDC, and I will mark all positions as you suggest.

How do you (or anyone else) recommend extracting the studs from below the timing cover ?
This is a tool I don't have !

Regards, H.

 

Hello from Germany,

on your profile I saw, that you own a 'Euro 308 GTB'. Is it a carb car with drysump lubrication ? If yes, the way Robert describes is not practicable.
This only works on wetsump cars. Reason, why this procedure doesn't work on drysump cars, is, because there's not the oil pickup tube, which makes things difficult, but the second suction pump driven by a chain wheel inside the front cover on the crankshaft, what makes things impossible.
I see no way, to remove the chain without removal of the transmission from the engine.
I went through this 9 years ago. It was an engine out job.
On the other hand; like mentioned here, the inner bearings rarely go bad. They are lubricated permanently and well by the engine's oil. In most cases it is the outer bearing and the seal, which is - depending on if you have a early or late car - installed differently. If you remove the pulleys and see a seal, you have the early version. If you remove the pulleys and see the outer bearing, you have the later version. The version changed within the carb car series sometime - IIRC - during 1979. With the later version it is relatively easy to remove it. You need a bearing puller which grabs between the inner and outer race. With the help of this tool you can pull the outer bearing while leaving the shaft on its place. When it's out you can see the seal and pull it; for instance with the help of two long wood screws.
I think, it is the same with the early version, but cannot confirm it, since I haven't seen it yet.

Best Regards

Martin

 

You have to expect this, they are 30 year old cars. I bought mine two years ago and I've only driven it 10 miles. I'm gald I did, right away leaking fuel line and one belt loose, instant motor failure or fire. Everybody at work and in the family thought I was nuts for not driving it right away, if I did more $$$. I went to work on it right away, replacing belts, fuel lines etc. It's not coming out of the garage until I feel it's ready. I pasted on one that had all the records and found out later the next guy put $4K into a year later and sold it. So you just don't know. The one I have now is a nice car but there's still work to be done, I got $6K knock off the price when I bought it. I've put about $2500 into it so far. The Ferrari thing is the love of working on them, paying crazy part prices and driving them, so far the driving part has to wait. One family member owns a beautiful 308, but again nothing had been replaced, just belts, a time bombs ticking away. I asked him what about fuel lines? water Hoses? His answer low mileage car it doesn't need it. He's not car smart!

 

Jim,

I agree with you. I did the same thing when I bought my '78 308 GTS two years ago. It went into my garage and I ended up pulling the engine to do a major service on it over the winter. Did the belts, bearings, cam timing, all hoses (fuel and cooling), installed Electromotive ignition system, new high torque starter, rebuilt brake calipers, sorted electrical issues, etc. Now the car is a joy to drive and it's nice knowing that things are as they should be. Smart moving doing it right!

Steve

 

If it is a dry sump, I must defer to Martin as I only have experience with the wet sump GT4 type engine. I am also an amateur mechanic and could not have done much without the help of this great group, most of who started at the FerrariList and Yahoo tech group. I went out and bought lots of metric tools and painted my garage black and do all my own work. I have been lucky as my car still runs good. But I love it so much I think it knows that and cooperates. I also know the later cars had sealed bearings as compared to my earlier one that has bearing inside the crank oil with the seal on the outside. While your in there I would replace or rebuild water pump and change all the hoses. If indeed it is a dry sump I cant contribute much more knowledge. However I have know Martin for years on the Ferrari internet and his advice should be heeded.

I can tell you this. I enjoy working on the Ferrari as much as driving it. I bought a blue smock like they wore when they built the cars, have sewn Ferrari and other patches on and "play" like I'm at the ferrari factory. I know it seems silly but my love for Ferrari the man and his machines runs deep and I feel privileged to even touch a motor such as this.

I have heard the timing gears fail from over tightened cam belts but mine failed shortly after a belt service where I set them up by factory specs. I heard a weird noise and when I took the wheel off the gear was turning way out of center. I replaced all the bearings and seals only to find that my rear cam belt moves a bit when the car gets warmed up. I thought I did something wrong so I completed the complete procedure again (hence my twice) just to find out I did everything right and the belt still move a bit when warm stays there then move back 1/4" when cold. No one had been able to explain this satisfactorily to me but the car turn 50,000 mile tomorrow!

My advice is in an old car expect these type of things, be very proactive and service sensitive and whatever the car needs do it. It will return your love and patience with years of motoring pleasure!

BTW I remove most studs by double nutting them, be careful the casting can be porous and do not over tighten them. I also recommend time-serts if a hole gets stripped, they are easy to install and make a permanent repair!

Rob
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Hey Rob; Thank You

BTW; I have always admired your garage pics, but there's always something new to spot; your boxes with the hardware are wonderful.
Most artists I know, musicians or whatever, are not so organized

Best Regards from Germany

Martin

 

Martin308GTB: Thanks for reply from Germany ! I do indeed have a drysump 308GTB. Happy and slightly sorry to say at the same time.
I do have a seal behind the drive pulley, then the circlip and the bearing. I pulled the bearing with a home-made tool grabbing the races as you explained.
I'll post a picture.
Maybe I need to find a picture or exploded view drawing of the drysump timing cover detail for a Euro drysump.
Need to get my mind around what it looks like inside.
Any help is appreciated.

Mentally I am preparing to remove the engine.
Meanwhile, there are probably links somewhere for how to do this at this great site ?
Pulling the engine out I mean !

The search for engine-pulling-threads begins !
(Wow, do I get to buy a hydraulic engine lift now ? Assuming the engine comes UP.)
Greetings,
H

 

seems that you don't have a parts book for your car yet. Every owner should have it, no matter if you plan extensive self maintenance and repair. But if you tackle such jobs it's mandatory to have a parts book.
If you need it fast, send me a PM with your private e-mail address and I will send you a pdf of the relevant parts book pages.
Also I have a picture of the front cover from a F40 somewhere, which is the same priciple regarding drysump suction pump drive. I will search and post it here.


Best Regards from Germany

Martin

 

Rob, someday I hope to tour your garage and go for a drive with you in your GT4...that would be awesome!

 

Exactly the same thing that I told a guy in Tennessee that had another 308 that I found. I asked about the belts, bearings, hoses, etc. As usual, he didn't know. I told him that it was a ticking time bomb. I wouldn't even crank the starter on a car like that. I might let the owner crank the starter, but not me. I would judge the car based on it's "mechanical intactness" if that makes any sense. I would just make sure that it is all there and just assume that it needs belts, bearings, hoses, etc, etc.

Unfortunately, most of the average casual 308 owners don't really have the Ferrarichat knowledge about what they have to sell. They really aren't worth the $20,000 or $30,000 asking price unless there is some real proof that the new buyer won't have to pump in 7 or 8 grand worth of time, effort, and money.

 

Hammerson; I have sent you the relevant parts book pages in the meantime. But like mentioned in one of my previous posts, I looked for a photo I have somewhere in my Ferrari literature. Now I found it.
On the picture below you see the front cover and second oil pump of a F40. Basically it's the same system like on our drysump GTB cars. They call it the scavenge pump, because it pumps the oil from the sump through the oil cooler back into the oil tank. The primary pump, which is the same like on the wetsump cars inside the front cover, draws the oil from the oil tank via that big hose from the tank to the front cover. Then through the engine. Therefore on our drysump cars the front cover is completely different with that big hose fitting.

Maybe; but I have no clue; it may be possible to pull the front cover while leaving the crankshaft chain wheel on its place. But what if it interferes with the other three gears ? And what about the chain guide / tensioner you can also see on the picture ? I have never heard, that someone tried this way and in my own case, engine removal seemed to be the easier way

Best Regards from Germany

Martin
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nice pic

 

Thank you so much again Martin. The manual pages are received for the drysump detail.
Very good picture.
Interesting thought that you have: What if I leave the chain and gear alone and pull the front cover.
The gears for the timing pulley shafts stay behind also, if I pull the cover. Hmmmm.
Seems tricky, but.....
I need to ask how long does it take to pull the engine at this point ?
Anyone ?

Regards,
H

 

Bob Garven did this with the engine in, and it took 6 weeks.

If I were to do this, it would take me 1 week to pull the engine,
1 week to disasseble the engine
and 1 week to fix it
1 more week to put it back..

4 weeks in totalm, and you will use fewer f words. That is how I would proceed.

 

The tool I made from other post here on this site.
I simplified a little by using two sockets of appropriate lengths.
I used two 6mm ball-head Allen wrenches.
These are filed flat to fit into bearing races, then turned 90 degrees to grab them.
Ground a tip for shaft location (leftmost), small black collar comes with the Autozone steeringwheel extraction tool, washers to space out the collar to fit the shaft locator tip.

Second pic: Tool installed.

Third pic: 1978 Euro 308 with drysump lubrication. The cam timing drive cover is different than a standard 308.
Note the large tube and different casting. It has an additional oil pump inside.
Greetings,
H
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since there is no pick-up tube I still dont understand why the cover cant be removed? Just curious?

 

Hi Rob,

when you look at the photo of the drysump front cover and pump in my previous posting, you see the two gears for the pulleys, the gear for the internal primary pump and the chain wheel for the scavenge pump.
Maybe it works, but my suspect was, that if you want to leave the chain wheel on the crankshaft while pulling the front cover, it may interfere with the gear of the primary pump. But even if it does not, what's with the chain guide / tensioner ? How can one put back the chain between the two guides ? There's no chance to get to the chain guide with the oil pan ( transmission casting ) installed.
Like said; maybe there's any procedure which works, but like yelcab said; too many f words

Best Regards from Germany

Martin

 

what I love about the 308 dry sump is the main pressure pump is still gear driven and it's only the scavenge pumps that are driven by a chain meaning no instant catastrophic failure should the chain break . .. they feed the pressure pump from the tank thru that line on the front of the timing cover . . . I think the pressure pump cavity,etc. is the same as the wet sump cars with the exception of how it's fed (pick up tube vs. line from tank) . . . I might revert my 308 dry sump design back to something like this instead of driving the entire stack off the one gear and having it stick out the front of the engine (no hijack intended . .. just been a while since I've thought about 308 dry sumps ).

thanks for the pics and take some more once you get if off please .

Sean

 

your going to have to pull the motor if it's a dry sump. the sump gear will interfere with the timing gears. it's far more a PITA then the day it takes to pull the motor. the 360 engine is set up nearly identical and it's a bit of a PITA to get the timing cover off with out a trans case in the way.