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308 belt installation

Discussion in '308/328' started by 123larry, Feb 23, 2008.

  1. 123larry

    123larry Rookie

    Dec 11, 2004
    45
    Manteca,ca
    Full Name:
    Larry Wiertel
    Hello,

    I am having a problem getting the timing belt back on the engine. I was to the point of installing a new timing belt on the rear bank of my 308qv when it appears the belt had shrunk. After several attempts I tried to reinstall the old belt, same problem. I have looked at the tensioner assembly several times , its fully retracted, measured the new bearings ID and OD. I would think the belt should slip on without a lot of trouble. I can't remember reading any threads about problems with first fitting on the belt. As this is the first try at it myself it very confusing.

    How tight is the belt when first installed? Is there an order to installing , or what does the belt slip over last (tensioner, rear cam pully)?


    Larry
     
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  3. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
    5,379
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    Paul
    Im assuming you know what your doing, have the cam belt teeth marked, or the cams locked, timed, etc.. IOW your not going to bend all your valves. Personally, I cheat. I found its about impossible to get them on without a fight. So why fight? I roll the front cam just a tad forward to get the belt slipping on, then roll the rear a bit to slip the belt on there, then work it on. Youll find its a lot looser once its on before you set the tensioner.
     
  4. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    Feb 24, 2006
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    Mike
    You might have to move the gear back and forth gently so the tooth of the belt will line up with groove of the gear.
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    19,912
    Texas
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    Steve Magnusson
    Yes, loosen the 3 nuts holding the (fully-compressed) Tesioner Assembly to the Block to get more slack in the belt for installation -- don't mangle/break the side flanges on the cam sprockets.
     
  6. StickChic

    StickChic Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2006
    626
    So Cal
    Do you know of Patrick Otis? He is in your area and is one of the most knowledgeable concerning F-cars. He judges at Cavalino among others and has a premier mechanics shop in your area. PM sent
     
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  8. 123larry

    123larry Rookie

    Dec 11, 2004
    45
    Manteca,ca
    Full Name:
    Larry Wiertel
    Hello,

    Thanks for the input, good to know this belt is not easy to slip on. I will look for input from Otis if forthcomming.


    Hav'ing lost the confidence in the engine position, I need to press the starter button. My new plan has me removing the rear bank valve cover and looking for the timing marks on the cam. I haven't read any problems with removing the distributer so what more problems can occur :)=)) ?


    Larry
     
  9. BillyD

    BillyD Formula 3
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    Feb 28, 2004
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    Bill
    I have to unbolt and remove the fully retracted tensioner, slide the belt on the 3 pulleys, then install the tensioner and release.
    Bill
     
  10. 123larry

    123larry Rookie

    Dec 11, 2004
    45
    Manteca,ca
    Full Name:
    Larry Wiertel
    Hi Bill,

    Sounds like a good idea. I will try it once I remove the valve cover and can see the cam timing marks. I expect to have some time tomorrow so will see if there is more excitement when the distributer thing comes out. I was hoping to have this done in a weekend but now ??? I will need to order gaskets and what not. thanks again for the idea.

    Larry
     
  11. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
    5,379
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    Paul
    I have never loosed or removed the tensioner assembly to R&R the belt. Just slide it back fully, lock it down, and slip the belt on by working the cam pulleys a bit this way or that. Piece of cake. Okay, not really, but it does go on, you just have to massage it a bit.
     
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  13. gerritv

    gerritv Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2001
    1,400
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    Gerrit
    #10 gerritv, Feb 26, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  14. robertgarven

    robertgarven F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2002
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    Robert Garven
    you have to move the gears a bit to get it on, very easy
     
  15. 350HPMondial

    350HPMondial F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2002
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    Edwardo
    Agree,

    Your not going to bend anything.
    Maybe, worst case scratch the piston top...... if your all thumbs
    (Do you know how freaking hard those valves are..?)

    edwardo
     
  16. 123larry

    123larry Rookie

    Dec 11, 2004
    45
    Manteca,ca
    Full Name:
    Larry Wiertel
    Hello,

    Input received has reassured me that my car is typical and I will move along with the belt install. Because I have moved the piston alittle, each way, I want to look at the timing marks on the cams for reassurance. Is there a proceedure I should follow or problems to watch for ? I expect that I will have to remove the distributer cap, and the gearing will remain in the head. Is this correct ? I have removed the inspection cover over the pressure plate , but can't claim to have seen any marks. I will try looking again.

    Thanks
    Larry
     
  17. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
    5,844
    NoNJ/Jupiter FL
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    Steve W.
    Larry,

    Did you set the timing mark on the fly wheel to TDC and check that you were at TDC on the intake stroke on cylinder #1 before you locked down the timing gears and took off the old belt? And did you mark the old belt, timing gears and drive gear? If not, you may have a problem making sure that the cams are properly aligned and that they did not slip one way or the other. You also needed that to check that you hadn't jumped a tooth on the belt between the cam gears, and between the cam gear and the drive gear.

    I've done this a couple of time, but don't consider myself an expert (I'm sure at least one pro will chime in), but once you get the belts on, if you were not at TDC, you'll have to crank the engine over slowly until you find the 1-4 timing mark and verify that you are on the intake on #1 (easy, just look at the intake lobe on the cam -- if it's moving down as you approach TDC, you are on intake, if it's moving up, you are on exhaust). Be very certain that your timing mark is perfectly lined up. Then look at the marks on the cam caps and the cams. They should be as close to dead-on as possible. If not, you may have a problem and you'll probably have to rig up a timing wheel and degree the cams from scratch. But that's a story for another day.

    Hope things line up correctly for you, Bro.
     
  18. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
    5,844
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    Steve W.
    p.s. Turn the engine over very slowly the first time. If you feel anything hit, stop immediately. Do NOT force it. These are interference engines and it probably means that a valve is hitting a piston. Been there, done that. Back off carefully and try to figure out where you went wrong. Best of luck.
     
  19. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    Feb 24, 2006
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    To make it easier to rotate the crank is to remove or loosen all the spark plug so it wont have any compression.
     
  20. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
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    Of course, that's a given. I was suggesting that when turning the engine over with plugs out, if he hits resistance and feel something hard hitting to stop. It happened to me when I was setting the valve timing. Forgot to retighten one of the cam gears and it jumped on me. Didn't realize it until I felt the piston hit the valve. Fortunately I was going very slowly, so no damage, but a PITA resetting everything. Experience is what we gain from our own mistakes. Wisdom is what we have learned from other people's mistakes.
     
  21. RichardAguinsky

    RichardAguinsky Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2007
    477
    Palo Alto, Californi
    Full Name:
    Richard Aguinsky
    Where did you get that lock for the cams? Did you make it? It looks like a great tool to have! :cool:
     
  22. 123larry

    123larry Rookie

    Dec 11, 2004
    45
    Manteca,ca
    Full Name:
    Larry Wiertel
    Hello,

    I'm thinking we mean the same thing but I set the cam marks at TDC on the compression stroke. I installed a gauge so I could see the pressure building on the #1 piston. I stopped removed the gauge , installed a stick and continued to advance the engine (clockwise ) untill very close to TDC. Then I locked the cams of the rear bank with a device I make. I also scribed a line across both cam pulleys. I wish I had counted the teeth from the drive pulley to the other two,but didn't.

    Because I have been searching for more information on the timing marks. I found a link that shows the timing mark of one of the cams as seen through the oil filler cap hole! While looking tonight I can see a mark that is almost lined up now, and Im not sure how close tdc is at the moment. Im going to make a device to dial indicate TDC then look at this mark and go from there. I think I may not have to remove the red valve cover after all.


    Larry
     
  23. blainewest

    blainewest Formula Junior

    Aug 26, 2005
    721
    Kelowna, BC
    Full Name:
    Blaine W
    Am I missing something here? Perhaps the qv is much more difficult than the 2v but I had no problems getting the belts on with the t-bearing fully retracted. Is the qv that different? I know the cams on the qv don't like to stay in place as easily as the 2v. Is this the problem?
     
  24. gerritv

    gerritv Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2001
    1,400
    St Catharines
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    Gerrit
    Hi Richard
    The cam lock tool I used is made by a fellow FChat member, awulff. He made a few at the time, not sure if he has more.

    Gerrit
    http://diono308gt4.com
     
  25. robertgarven

    robertgarven F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2002
    5,089
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    Robert Garven
    #22 robertgarven, Feb 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    who had the wooden lock that went aroiund both camshafts with the marks, Thats the one I wish I had so you could lock them down loose enough to turn the gear a bit but not let it slip. I dont think you want the valves to hit the heads though as since they are sodium filled if they get a kink they can and will break quickly.

    Rob
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  26. 123larry

    123larry Rookie

    Dec 11, 2004
    45
    Manteca,ca
    Full Name:
    Larry Wiertel
    Hello Robert,

    Nice pictures of your timing marks.


    Thanks
    Larry
     
  27. 123larry

    123larry Rookie

    Dec 11, 2004
    45
    Manteca,ca
    Full Name:
    Larry Wiertel
    #24 123larry, Mar 5, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    hello,

    Well the new belts are on! I had no problems with the right bank. It pays to have experience. I had to remove the valve cover from the left bank to have confidence in the cam position. The right bank tensioner bearing appeared older than the other, posible it see's more water and tire splash?

    With the cam cover off I found an allen cap plug loose at the rear engine exaust cam end. I'm not sure what this was there for and would appreciate any input. the cam cover had some sort of hose connection this area. I assume it's to vent any pressure build up in the valve cover. I am including a picture of the screw (uses 10mm allen).

    I also noticed the cam cover gaskets had a sealer applied to the edge on the lower part. I would also like some input on how to best seal up the cam cover. What gasket sealer is best?

    I did check the valve clearences and they looked great. I don't plan to remove the other cam cover, something for next time.


    Regards,
    Larry
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  28. 123larry

    123larry Rookie

    Dec 11, 2004
    45
    Manteca,ca
    Full Name:
    Larry Wiertel
    #25 123larry, Mar 26, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    hello,

    My car is back on the road. I took a nice ride in the hills, it was great. I am posting some pictures I think will help others. In retrospect I should have marked the cam pullys very carfully, and bought a ferrari spark plug tool. I'm glad I did the work myself, I know whats there and next time will be a snap. Its a great feeling to hear that engine start up. thanks all for the support



    Larry
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